A BBC Radio 4 journalist visiting me in a few hours. They're making a documentary about memes - can you help with some of the questions?The kinds of things that are popular on B3ta, the memes that are specific too it, and what they say about the people interacting on B3ta. What are your favourites? It would be nice if you could tell us about/play us some things you like (as long as they aren't NSFW...)
EDIT: In short. What are your favourite b3ta memes? Please include image examples so we can see them.
(EDIT: In short. What are your favourite b3ta memes? Please include image examples so we can see them.
rob,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:39,
archived)
Probably the most accessible meme (one I'd be interested in exploring) is Spanging.Everyone loves a groansome pun - Christmas Cracker jokes are
deliberately bad so everyone gets it and it's a shared thing.
The violence of the frying pan, with Vic & Bob and Bottom in
our collective memory, is a mainstay of British humour and
might be the most accessible B3ta meme outside the site itself.
Also we need to find out who Smug Bastard is.
(deliberately bad so everyone gets it and it's a shared thing.
The violence of the frying pan, with Vic & Bob and Bottom in
our collective memory, is a mainstay of British humour and
might be the most accessible B3ta meme outside the site itself.
Also we need to find out who Smug Bastard is.
Bela Lugosi's Dad,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:45,
archived)
Squirrels with tits for the yiffers on here
The Scrunt Wants a Dozen Pints,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:13,
archived)
The key is in the ignition of the cardboard meme wagon.
- A shared sense of irrelevant funny
- Repetition
Octo I ruin everything.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:45,
archived)
Your powers are weak old man...
Just Juan Cornetto will take you to the lo-rider show n' flaunt ya on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:31,
archived)
I'm a sucker for the kittens & fluff.
The human memes tend to leave me cold, though.
*shakes fist at Freebase*
Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:46,
archived)
Although, I do have a soft spot for The Quo.There's something vaguely comforting about the innocuous image of two laughing, elderly Gentleman rockers, surrounded by an impending doom they've undoubtedly wrought.
( Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:56,
archived)
Howdy, CaptainI wholeheartedly agree
I don't think I've ever done a Quo
*edit* Although a quick image search reveals these:
(I don't think I've ever done a Quo
*edit* Although a quick image search reveals these:
bilbobarneybobs I'll be 14 in b3ta years soon.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:17,
archived)
I think if I had to choose one meme for b3ta, it'd be these guys.The kittens are cool, but not really exclusive to this site.
( Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:26,
archived)
aye INDEEDI also have a soft spot for Henry and Smug bastard (if it's done right)
Freebase annoys the hell out of me
(Freebase annoys the hell out of me
bilbobarneybobs I'll be 14 in b3ta years soon.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:32,
archived)
Freebase does not exist in my dojo.And many of the human memes had had their day, long before I arrived, so I've never felt any sort of attachment to most of them.
Maybe that's the key with certain memes - you have to have been there at their genesis to truly "get" them..
(Maybe that's the key with certain memes - you have to have been there at their genesis to truly "get" them..
Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:39,
archived)
I think with Freebase the problem is that most of the posts are just really lazyno real effort goes into it and the end result is just disjointed and a waste of a post
There have been a couple of good freebase posts but the rest have shit
(There have been a couple of good freebase posts but the rest have shit
Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:44,
archived)
Isn't that a bit like all the pictures on here generally though?Not every one's a classic.
( Prequal This is serious business. Very serious.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:03,
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I think Proj summed it up best with shitty face meme guy
(
Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:06,
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well you make anything look good...
( bilbobarneybobs I'll be 14 in b3ta years soon.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:43,
archived)
Agreed.Teh Quo are possibly the best b3ta specific meme. It would be great to hear what they thought about it.
(
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:18,
archived)
see. nothing but spammy links to your own siteyou've changed, rob.
(,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:50,
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I agree /talk are mostly sad old men
(
Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:51,
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Is this the today show or just something about the Internet which'll come out in about a year?
(
Christian's Bolt and Ski,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:57,
archived)
Also I'm quite proud of this Zak goldsmug I made once.
Christian's Bolt and Ski,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:59,
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dunno when it'll be broadcast but it's a doc rather than a news show rob,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:59,
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Memes make ideal "dogs" for websites. Je suis un vagabond is an unfunny, up your own arse middle class knob,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 8:59,
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Dick BeattieThe Man, The Peas, The Party Gimmicks... He's an unsung treasure as he has NO idea the fun both he, and his party wear, have given us mere mortals on b3ta.
Either that or Brian Blessed, as he's become his own parody over the years to keep the irreverence that b3ta (and the rest of the internet/geekery in general) absolutely loves. Plus, he even agreed to an interview, so what's not to love.
(Either that or Brian Blessed, as he's become his own parody over the years to keep the irreverence that b3ta (and the rest of the internet/geekery in general) absolutely loves. Plus, he even agreed to an interview, so what's not to love.
The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:01,
archived)
replying to myself, but it occurs to me Disaster Quo should be in this listanyone got any images of that?
( rob,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:02,
archived)
Only the one I posted further up there ^Which isn't the clearest indication of the medium, unfortunately.
( Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:04,
archived)
the other questions - should you fancy having a go answering themThe community that has developed, and they traits they have, the language they use, and is there still a stigma that there are just sad young men and not 'normal people'?
Do you think anonymity on the internet has any consequences? Do you think there is a darker side, does it change us to hide behind the internet?
What pleasure do people get from creating and sharing memes? Do you think it can be more than just a bit of fun? The programme is presented by Dr Susan Blackmore, who has a theory that ultimately, we are going to be driven by memes, and the need to stay connected online to build bigger and more powerful computers, which will eventually be able to copy, vary and select material by themselves, making us their slaves. How does that make you feel?
Why is the internet obsessed with cats?
What have your dealings with the 'traditional' media been like? Obviously, advertisers would love to 'harness the power of memes', and get people to do their work for them. Have they tried to piggy back on your popularity? Has there ever been any plagiarism? Are people precious about their work?
Should images and videos be free to be edited, changed and passed on, For example, Shepherd Fairey's Obama poster? Wouldn't it have been better for the production company to embrace the downfall meme, rather than remove it from Youtube?
People have argued that the lack of a 'gatekeeper' on the internet is a dreadful thing, that we now have to wade through a sea of unedited crap. Do you think this is really true? Or could it be a good thing that we are exposed to more of everything?
I'll probably also have to ask that awful question along the lines of 'do you think in the future we'll all have to wear tin foil hats to protect ourselves from the technology...'
(Do you think anonymity on the internet has any consequences? Do you think there is a darker side, does it change us to hide behind the internet?
What pleasure do people get from creating and sharing memes? Do you think it can be more than just a bit of fun? The programme is presented by Dr Susan Blackmore, who has a theory that ultimately, we are going to be driven by memes, and the need to stay connected online to build bigger and more powerful computers, which will eventually be able to copy, vary and select material by themselves, making us their slaves. How does that make you feel?
Why is the internet obsessed with cats?
What have your dealings with the 'traditional' media been like? Obviously, advertisers would love to 'harness the power of memes', and get people to do their work for them. Have they tried to piggy back on your popularity? Has there ever been any plagiarism? Are people precious about their work?
Should images and videos be free to be edited, changed and passed on, For example, Shepherd Fairey's Obama poster? Wouldn't it have been better for the production company to embrace the downfall meme, rather than remove it from Youtube?
People have argued that the lack of a 'gatekeeper' on the internet is a dreadful thing, that we now have to wade through a sea of unedited crap. Do you think this is really true? Or could it be a good thing that we are exposed to more of everything?
I'll probably also have to ask that awful question along the lines of 'do you think in the future we'll all have to wear tin foil hats to protect ourselves from the technology...'
rob,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:05,
archived)
the joy of the internet is wading through hours of unedited crapfor all the hours of tedium there are some real diamond pieces.
As for the obsession with cats that is forced upon us by the NWO to try to distract us from looking at the chem trails left behind by the lizard people from outer space
(As for the obsession with cats that is forced upon us by the NWO to try to distract us from looking at the chem trails left behind by the lizard people from outer space
Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:13,
archived)
I only come here for the unedited crap.I have no interest in only seeing things some middle class prat in a suit says is allowed.
(
Mu Dinofiddler,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:21,
archived)
I'd prefer to have the entire world view, and sort through the shit for myself, rather than having an homogenised template.Being told what's funny will only work on occasion.
I know I feel a sense of pride when some random something on the internet, (which just happened to make me smile), swiftly becomes viral..
.. and I also spit at my monitor when things I hate become globally popular.
But it's all part of the net's rich tapestry, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
(I know I feel a sense of pride when some random something on the internet, (which just happened to make me smile), swiftly becomes viral..
.. and I also spit at my monitor when things I hate become globally popular.
But it's all part of the net's rich tapestry, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:23,
archived)
The subject of Memes for me first came up as a kid watching a short doc on the sci Fi channelAnd it scared the shit out of me. From later on going on the Internet and encountering this term led me to understand it as an alternative word for injoke and collective reference. I've noticed more here than in other Internet realms the meme is treated with often a bit more regular creative use than used as an image with a black border and words. I suppose that's a b3ta idiocyncracy to avoid a toap. And is that a meme too?
( Christian's Bolt and Ski,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:24,
archived)
Also this Susan blackmore sounds like one of the talking headsIf it was the same lady she seemed to imply they had some independent existence from people, partly why that freaked me out. Which to be honest seemed a bit odd. Wouldn't it be cart before the horse?
( Christian's Bolt and Ski,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:43,
archived)
This is the whole point of memes, in the original sense as a parallel for genesGenes want to ensure their own survival and can be good or bad for the organism; memes, likewise, are replicating units of ideas. Most of them are just ordinary ideas which we discuss, but some of them evade rationality and have means of going uncriticised. We should hunt those ones down and kill them with fire.
I don't think this applies to any internet memes, or memes in the sense of fun things to repeat.
(,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:35,
archived)
I don't think this applies to any internet memes, or memes in the sense of fun things to repeat.
Memes themselves bore me senseless.They are the internet equivalent of an endlessly repeated Little Britain catchphrase. The only purpose they serve is to allow people who dont have original ideas to join in the fun.
(,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:04,
archived)
Personally I think once memes get out into the wider world they lose a lot of their powerI'd point to Mike Huckabee's "Chuck Norris Facts" election advert or Rick Astley rick-rolling the Macy's Parade as examples - it's almost like the meme "sold out" and it's just not as amusing any more. When I was working deep within the bowels of advertising earlier last year I had representatives of [political party] asking me how to get unflattering Downfall videos removed from YouTube at the same time as their sock-puppets were uploading unflattering Downfall vids about [other political party]. I just think it was funnier when it was bored internerds who were doing it for lols, rather than grasping politicians desperately trying to get one over their opposite number.
(
emvee cruor deo cruoris,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:13,
archived)
regarding the cats questionMy missus will just type "kittens" into Google if she wants cheering up
( emvee cruor deo cruoris,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:41,
archived)
So you're saying that every now and then memes....
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:23,
archived)
I wouldn't say we were normal"creatives" is a better all encompassing word. People who want to make something not just watch tv.
Anonymity can be freeing, you don't worry about drawing cocks on things for a laugh because no one knows you well enough to judge you. It can lead to freer exploration of ideas.
I don't think anyone tries to create a meme, they start as one funny picture like any other but it has something that the crowd maintain.
I think that woman has a different idea to a meme than we do, I can't imagine being driven by the Quo anywhere.
Because cats are better than us
Traditional media is the same as digital, people use your stuff and generally don't give just reward, using you up and spitting you out - unless you're lucky and went to school with the boss or his mate.
Lots of people have reposted my work as theirs and had far more success than I have, hell riverghost has a story about someone pretending to be me to get a shag in a pub once! crazy world that is far more exciting than my own.
If it's not damaging to the original artwork and isn't being used for financial gain then yes. It's flattery and proof of a good source. If the artist is a getting rich or successful off someone elses effort then they should be tarred and feathered.
I think the sea of crap is very true, and the more accessible 2d and 3d creative software is the more half arsed stuff we'll see. But everyone has to start somewhere and its the way of the world. At least with digital stuff you can just press delete.
Tin foil hats are useless against chemtrails and the scientologist hand massage
(Anonymity can be freeing, you don't worry about drawing cocks on things for a laugh because no one knows you well enough to judge you. It can lead to freer exploration of ideas.
I don't think anyone tries to create a meme, they start as one funny picture like any other but it has something that the crowd maintain.
I think that woman has a different idea to a meme than we do, I can't imagine being driven by the Quo anywhere.
Because cats are better than us
Traditional media is the same as digital, people use your stuff and generally don't give just reward, using you up and spitting you out - unless you're lucky and went to school with the boss or his mate.
Lots of people have reposted my work as theirs and had far more success than I have, hell riverghost has a story about someone pretending to be me to get a shag in a pub once! crazy world that is far more exciting than my own.
If it's not damaging to the original artwork and isn't being used for financial gain then yes. It's flattery and proof of a good source. If the artist is a getting rich or successful off someone elses effort then they should be tarred and feathered.
I think the sea of crap is very true, and the more accessible 2d and 3d creative software is the more half arsed stuff we'll see. But everyone has to start somewhere and its the way of the world. At least with digital stuff you can just press delete.
Tin foil hats are useless against chemtrails and the scientologist hand massage
HappyToast Groat froth,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:31,
archived)
This is Ace. I may have to nick it for an award at work...We go on about the 'He's Spartacus' award for spineless blame shifting - this is the ideal e-mail attachment.
Can I nick it? Can I ? Can I? Oh go on pleeease?
(Can I nick it? Can I ? Can I? Oh go on pleeease?
da5id <YOUR SIG HERE>,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:47,
archived)
Actually crying with laughter.....Bravo.
(
The only Dave is pushing things forward,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 13:14,
archived)
"Slaves" doesn't make much sense.Perhaps we would willingly work to serve the meme-devising-computers because we love them so. It's hard to see how a computer can select memes that we'd enjoy, though, without being an artificial intelligence, and there's no reason to assume an artificial intelligence that understands us deeply would be immoral and enslave us. On the contrary, we'd make it one of us, with our values.
(,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:27,
archived)
There's quite a few in emvee's pic here:b3ta.com/board/10276779
Specific to b3ta, my faves would be TEH FEAR and Dick Beattie.
(Specific to b3ta, my faves would be TEH FEAR and Dick Beattie.
Geoff the Clownfish You know Myra, some people might think you're cute,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:06,
archived)
oops sorry I missed thispearoasted below for your viewing pleasure ;)
( emvee cruor deo cruoris,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:06,
archived)
Personally I'm sick of seeing the freebase and shitty face memesBRING ON THE FLUFF
*EDIT*
Thinking about other little memes such as ^ What she said, Racist and so on
the b3ta meme goes way beyond pictures
(*EDIT*
Thinking about other little memes such as ^ What she said, Racist and so on
the b3ta meme goes way beyond pictures
Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:06,
archived)
While not essentialy a meme, I have always been puzzled by the B3ta consensus around.... I have always been puzzled by the B3ta consensus around....
BATTENBERG!
There are people here who LOVE it and those who DENY its almondy awesomeness but so many agree it seems to be the perfect B3ta cake?
Why is that? It's hardly a 'mainstream' sweet/cake (my guess is that it the pink-yellow chequer pattern is sust to good a visual to miss)
(BATTENBERG!
There are people here who LOVE it and those who DENY its almondy awesomeness but so many agree it seems to be the perfect B3ta cake?
Why is that? It's hardly a 'mainstream' sweet/cake (my guess is that it the pink-yellow chequer pattern is sust to good a visual to miss)
The magic of chutney Shakes it like an Instagram filter!,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:09,
archived)
*shakes head sadly*Well, I'm sure you are a good person in OTHER ways
( The magic of chutney Shakes it like an Instagram filter!,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:11,
archived)
...Steady on
( The magic of chutney Shakes it like an Instagram filter!,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:16,
archived)
Arsecake of the Devil The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:13,
archived)
Finally a sensible gentleman of taste, not swept in the meme of Battenburg.
Marzipan is the name of the Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:19,
archived)
Behave yourselfjust because it has the same smell as Cyanide doesn't make it evil.
( Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:24,
archived)
It can never be made evil,it's evil incarnate
( The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:25,
archived)
It is a gift from the gods, Sweet ambrosia gifted from Olympus
(
Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:30,
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You are wrong on all level of Hades The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:33,
archived)
For dinner today I will go out and by a roll of Marzipanand eat it until I vomit
( Paul_P http://www.Paul-hub.com,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:37,
archived)
0.000001 seconds later... The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:43,
archived)
*narrows eyes*You know, This is the REAL reason I treat you with suspicion...
( The magic of chutney Shakes it like an Instagram filter!,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:49,
archived)
hahaha, :) not the NWO then? The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:56,
archived)
take your pick!
h3donist tryin' to play me out as if my name is Sega..,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:17,
archived)
There's the verbal memes, too...I've used "RIS" at work on several occasions.
I think the Honda Accord of Justice meme from QotW has proved its durability, too.
(I think the Honda Accord of Justice meme from QotW has proved its durability, too.
Enzyme is powered by sunlight,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:48,
archived)
Japaese car, innit, built to last ;) The Great Architect is still waiting for his account to be deleted on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:58,
archived)
Needs moreSturdy Girl
( buffet_the_appetite_slayer ٩(●̮̃•)۶ jacked in to the ICE on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:50,
archived)
fear, quo, chump, and beatie
are my faves,
amoebaboy chose for death by unga bunga on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 9:58,
archived)
Shit, this is good :D Prequal This is serious business. Very serious.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:02,
archived)
*reposts* - memes circa 2006
I love the memes - I like to think they inhabit a separate b3taverse where they get up to all sorts of adventures :)
emvee cruor deo cruoris,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:02,
archived)
yay !i see chicken girl.
( amoebaboy chose for death by unga bunga on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:09,
archived)
Haha - Eddie Jackson FTW
(
Geoff the Clownfish You know Myra, some people might think you're cute,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:35,
archived)
Memes fall in to two categories, things we hold dear (Blessed, Quo) and those that are just funny source pics (No Hands, Ris)Most start as an entertaining brainstorming session where people run with the funny picture in as many directions as possible, with enough repetition it gets stuck and adopted. It's appearance then takes on a kind of hoping for acceptance feel with the artist showing they know what b3ta is about - "look at me, I'm one of you" or a longing for that initial buzz of idea development.
There is also the clique nature of something obscure being used. Outsiders won't understand what it is about and therefore the artist feels he/she has the upper hand - childish but human nature.
Either way it's used in a way of talking on a familiar term with peers.
(There is also the clique nature of something obscure being used. Outsiders won't understand what it is about and therefore the artist feels he/she has the upper hand - childish but human nature.
Either way it's used in a way of talking on a familiar term with peers.
HappyToast Groat froth,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:19,
archived)
Well that's a neato what now right
(
Geoff the Clownfish You know Myra, some people might think you're cute,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:29,
archived)
I guess the numerous versions of this could be considered a meme.Even though it never strays from the confines of the weekly compo..
( Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 10:30,
archived)
long live b3ta meme's, some of my faves I've done
Haku Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Three Orange Whips.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:09,
archived)
The Flaming Freebases pic is still the only one of its kind I've ever clicked.It's great in itself & doesn't require any knowledge of him.
( Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:32,
archived)
thanksthat's a nice compliment, especially as I inadvertantly pissed off a lot of people by accidentally 'creating' the most used freebase image
( Haku Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Three Orange Whips.,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:36,
archived)
Freebase has his place at b3ta, and my opinion on that fact is neither here nor there.You say you've created a monster.
I say take pride in having made something that appeals to a wide audience.
(I say take pride in having made something that appeals to a wide audience.
Captain Howdy,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:52,
archived)
They're all good.I like 'Tesco Value' as you can always insult something by making out it's a cheap crap version of something good. Also Teh Quo are fun.
( Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:16,
archived)
Yay for andrew mcdavies.
(
Thor_sonofodin has done things, terrible things on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:29,
archived)
Does slash fiction about the site's founder count as a meme?
emvee cruor deo cruoris,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:26,
archived)
there's still a kit for this sort of stuff.www.b3takit.co.uk/
i still like joey decon.
(i still like joey decon.
Thor_sonofodin has done things, terrible things on,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:31,
archived)
Also, there is the fun to be had from trying to act the memes out on your honeymoon without the missus noticing...(just me then?)
Afinkawan Yes I can hear you Clem Fandango,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:32,
archived)
Not just youbut I can't find the pic of me and a mate being the Quo right now :(
( emvee cruor deo cruoris,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 11:46,
archived)
I really like the 'Whale a Poyd' meme but don't have any images, soz.I like Bela Lugusi's Dad's Christmas cracker joke analogy, but at the same time I remember how bewildering many of the memes were when I first found b3ta. Often the meme will make absolutely no sense and you have to be in on it to find it funny. Letting people in on the joke is away to show acceptance into little online communities like b3ta.
(
Hellzapoppin,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 12:49,
archived)
As far as memes go........................................some like it hot...
atomic A-bomb-a-nation,
Mon 7 Feb 2011, 13:47,
archived)
