They stole our revolution, we're stealing it back
He's at 1800 transistors and Intel is a mere touch ahead at 3.8 billion for an 8 core i9
(
The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 22:48,
Reply)
Good for him using transistors.
And they're all functioning exactly like istors would.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 23:16, Reply)
There’s no need to make chips out of them.
They’re doing it for themselves.
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 10:43, Reply)
Fascinating Stuff.
That graph 20 seconds in made me chuckle.
(
VicJameson : fucking internet virgins since, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 19:09,
Reply)
Offensive song that undermines and trivialises the transition from male to female by claiming it merely requires some depilation.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 22:15,
Reply)
This is not plausible dialogue.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 22:47,
Reply)
frockers has discovered Lou Reed,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQD-dXfHrvk&t=5s
(
The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 22:50,
Reply)
In the book Sick Boy shoots the dog.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 22:54,
Reply)
he does in the film
'For a vegetarian you're an evil shot' The dog attacks its owner and they kill the dog.
(
The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 22:57,
Reply)
Nope.
In the film:
‘For a vegetarian, Rents, you’re a fucking evil shot.’
Renton cocks and reloads.
Cut.
Fate of dog unknown.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 23:04,
Reply)
then why does it attack the owner?
(
The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 23:02,
Reply)
Since people might possibly get offended by the Kinks song, I’m going to post a song that’s damn certain to offend absolutely everyone
(Klytus from Flash Gordon sings)
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Thrill_My_Chinchilla is old and unimproved, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:43,
Reply)
That is Fantastic
Why have I never heard of this before?
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 13:21,
Reply)
It’s actually pretty glasscocky, but every time I listen to it I’m still amazed at just how offensive it is
And Sean (Quentin) has used it in one of his videos as well - about oil-seed rape/Crisp N Dry.
youtu.be/h5d-87I49eU
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Thrill_My_Chinchilla is old and unimproved, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 15:38,
Reply)
It is amazingly offensive
I'm amazed it is still on Youtube
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 17:31,
Reply)
Pepsi was once the 6th Biggest Military in the World
ffs, the vid starts at 1:22
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:40, Reply)
Oh, it's him. The false eccentric English answer to V-Sauce.
I simply cannot stand him, soz.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:26,
Reply)
anybody who puts 1:22 minutes of ads at the start of their video is crazy
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 22:47, Reply)
I, for one, welcome our new grey goo overlords.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:57,
Reply)
Could it be?
..... that after 7 years and 36 episodes they fuck up the timing and can't get it to run?
(
buffet_the_appetite_slayer ٩(●̮̃•)۶ jacked in to the ICE on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:31,
Reply)
Hang on, the last one was only a week ago.
WHAT THE FUCK IS REAL ANY MORE?
(
evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:32,
Reply)
I had one hour sleep last night. My tenuous grip on reality is slipping, and this isn't helping.
(
evil_andy Stick stick stick stick sticky sticky stick stick, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 20:01,
Reply)
Long Legged Larry
Aesop Rock
(
Ambegris likes his tea stirred anti-clockwise, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:44,
Reply)
I'm so grateful there are artists like Aesop Rock out there keeping real Hip Hop alive
amongst all this mumbly half-arsed shite the youngsters these days pass off as 'rap music'.
Is it just me though, or has YouTube's sound quality taken an enormous nose dive recently? There's absolutely no dynamic range anymore. Barely noticeable during speech, but music sounds like it's being played through a shit FM radio.
I suppose they're trying to push for their 'YouTube Music' service that absolutely no cunt is interested in being that they're a good 5 years late to the party. Strange way to do it, though. Mind you, the whippersnappers of today probably wouldn't recognise high audio fidelity if it bit them on the arse. It's all about bass now, innit. Sorry, I'm rambling now.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:55, Reply)
YT audio has always been nasty. And I understand it tends to darken videos too.
Re-uploads really cut into the quality too, worse than VHS copying.
The loudness war pre-dates youtube, and we all lost. There are some orchestral recordings on there that have proper quiet bits and proper loud bits, as well as some movies with proper cinematic dynamics, so I don't know about it being a YT issue.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:46,
Reply)
Maybe the copyright owners have some say in the matter.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:10,
Reply)
I don't have figures for YT, but Spotify taps out at 128kbps, so I imagine YT is no better and likely worse. But, as you say, the 'kids' probably don't care as they listen through earbuds, laptop/tablet speakers or Beats (which are godawful, and essentially a scam).
(
Quiver Search for FATALISTS on Spotify, Amazon, Apple, &c, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:03,
Reply)
www.google.com/amp/s/thenextweb.com/news/how-to-stream-spotify-at-the-best-possible-quality/amp
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 10:07, Reply)
Goes well with the Green Jello track from the other day. :)
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:47,
Reply)
All I did was post a calm, reasonable psychiatry video* and a shitstorm erupted.
*because I have a massive crush on her
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:14,
Reply)
Oh is it your fault?
Still, it’s a great song, and very enlightened for 1970. I think it would be misinterpreted as transphobic by many today. I don’t think it is. Sadly, so many people are desperate to find stuff offensive these days, I think this charming little ditty would fall foul of that.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:11,
Reply)
Yes and Maggie May would be arrested.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 20:20,
Reply)
Ha! I was listening to Every Picture Tells a Story fairly recently.
All time classic. The title track’s lyrics though, not something I’d play in certain company. And Rod does seem, lyrically at least, to have had a preoccupation with school girls, That album though. Amazing. Shame he’ll be remembered for his later shite, like Sailing.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:09,
Reply)
Not a particular fan of Rod, In a Broken Dream is great though.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 23:19,
Reply)
I dont think you're to blame
I posted a trans person's video about trans athletics, in response to a joke video about a crap racing motorcyclist who identified as a cyclist.
Either way, I'm sorry this has monopolized so much space.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:23,
Reply)
I don’t think anyone’s to blame really. It’s a very hot topic at the moment.
It makes a change from Covid. Which made a change from Brexit.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:37,
Reply)
So now people come out as cyclists.
Instead of it being a dirty secret between them and Halfords.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 20:18,
Reply)
Another pointless (apart from 2) video
Traditional Sunday video until they get bored and stop posting or she decides to get an only fans and get them out properly.
(
TBL I posted this on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 12:10,
Reply)
in the next video he explains how to make an anvil and hammer out of a pair of tweezers and a two pound coin
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 13:25,
Reply)
A feminist perspective on the trans debate
written by Jane Clare Jones, one of those evil TERFs you have now.
Worth a read if you’re interested in the thorniest of thorny issues.
On another thread, Invisible Wizard says, of trans people, “nothing about us without us”, yet doesn’t see that trans activism doesn’t extend that principle to when male people decide that being female has no political significance in itself. This blog is a very good, clear headed look at why the “it’s just like gay rights!” analogy is wrong.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 10:16, Reply)
The "Nothing about us without us" demand is based on the idea that it's not a genuine debate if it doesn't include the voice of those who are being debated
If you want to put forward the discussion points of so-called trans-exclusionary radical feminists, that's absolutely your right, but it's silly to expect me to do it.
Gender critical feminists have plenty of voices, through high profile supporters, newspaper columns and so on.
I'm not putting forward the opinions of "TERFs", because they aren't the people who have been excluded from the discussion, because they aren't the people whose identities are being attacked, because they have a loud enough voice without me adding to it, and because it's a position I disagree with.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 10:26,
Reply)
You’re ignoring the fact
That a central tenet of trans activism has been “No Debate!”, and that the fundamental demand of trans activism is to redefine the concept of women to include male people, while dismissing opposing views as bigotry. Does trans activism suggest that male people who believe that they are women should speak to a wide range of women, as well as gender non-conforming men, in order to better gain an understand of whether they genuinely do share an innate identity with all women and no men? Or does trans activism say that one can unilaterally decide that they are effectively a member of the opposite sex?
Don’t say “nothing about us without us” unless you’re prepared to apply it to yourself too, sunshine.
That you don’t see this is very telling: you’re saying “nothing about us without us” while openly saying “of course I won’t consider and engage with an opposing feminist view!”. It’s OK to redefine women without considering feminist objections?
I would happily put forward accurate observations of trans activist positions when advocating an opposing view: the only way to fairly treat the discourse is by honestly anticipating opposing arguments and engaging with their substance.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 10:35, Reply)
That's not what I've said at all.
I'm putting forward the voices of trans people so that they get heard. What they have to say is important, and deserves an airing.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 10:40,
Reply)
You don’t actually seem very knowledgable
I’ve listened to opinions of trans people. Doing so made me do a 180 from being supportive of trans rights activism to considering it to be regressive, sexist bollocks.
And you have no interest in why, because so far, all you’ve done is the gender war equivalent of the weird guy here who posts burns victim videos to show how cool he is with burns victims.
So here’s a couple of questions for you, let’s go from first principles. Why do you think trans women are women?, who are you including as “trans women” in the phrase “trans women are women”? and in what circumstances might you doubt a male person’s claim to be a woman?
I can tell you my answer to all those questions, confidently, articulately and from a position of compassion for trans people while not blindly accepting every claim. I can also say exactly what it would take for me to change my mind, and will read anything you point me to that substantively addresses these issues.
And hers one more question for you.
How do you square “it’d be silly to expect me to put forth the opposing position too!” with your other assertion of “nothing about us without us”?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 10:44, Reply)
"and in what circumstances might you doubt a male person’s claim to be a woman?'
This is the crux of the whole issue here, in my opinion. It's a paradox, really. How do you practice exclusion in a movement/culture that is (allegedly) so fundamentally based around inclusion?
Is the individual below allowed to identify as a woman? By identifying as a woman, does she get the same freedoms as a woman who complies more readily to the accepted image of what a 'woman' looks like? Who decides?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:15, Reply)
Yep. And the answer is
“You don’t - you just evade the idea that there’s any issues”. Which ultimately means that trans activism adopts a “not all men are like this” approach, because it relies on the idea that safeguarding against the risks male people pose to female people becomes absolutely unnecessary when the male person says “I am a woman”, and always falls back on “but most males aren’t rapists!”. I know that I’m not a rapist or an abuser I also recognise that safeguarding at my work, where I sup-pet vulnerable people, has to recognise the potential that I could be. And it isn’t reasonable that a heterosexual male can be considered to be less of a risk than I am on the basis of having dysphoria; dysphoria doesn’t stop some trans men from being celebrated as “the man who gave birth”, so why should dysphoria impact other sex-based behaviour?
And that’s why it’s important that communication is clear - and why it’s important to not say “trans women are women” unless you really do believe these two things:
1: some male people have an inner essence that enables them to know that they have what amounts to a spirit that makes them a member of the opposite sex
2. No male people place themselves in this group, either accidentally, due to a flawed understanding of themselves or mental distress, or deliberately - based on being a male person who wants access to female spaces
I think that most reasonable people don’t believe either of those things - they actually believe the thing that is true - that some male people find being male distressing, and to help, they live as close to their idea of the opposite sex as is feasible. When activism goes beyond that, it will encounter people saying “no”
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:22, Reply)
And with your image -
It’s important to treat it head on, not as a facetious comment but as a genuine one.
If that man can’t be considered a woman, as he appears now, why not? Why is it ludicrous? There is no answer to this that trans activism has that doesn’t impose a level of stereotypical expectations of women onto the group “women”.
I can say “this man can not be a woman because he is not female”.
Trans activism can only say “this man probably isn’t a woman because he isn’t presenting as I expect women to present”
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:32, Reply)
Anybody who treats it as facetious is ignoring the bigger question.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:36, Reply)
Yes.
Here’s an example of something else trans activism is ill equipped to deal with.
If I said
“I am a woman. I’m here for my gender recognition certificate, I have lived according to this gender identity for my entire life. Here’s some examples:
1: I am a keen footballer, I play football every week and enjoy it
2: I keep my hair short, and occasionally have some facial hair
3: I don’t like wearing skirts and dresses - I tend to wear jeans and t-shirts
4: I’m attracted to women, and all my partners have been women
5: I’m physically strong, and work as a labourer
6. I don’t feel the need to physically transition - I am comfortable with my body and the fact that my body was assigned male at birth no longer causes me distress, as I’m confident that whatever my body looks like, I am a woman”
Then on what basis would any trans activist say that I wasn’t a woman?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 11:44, Reply)
No,
that is the argument as to why they are not female.
It is a very valid argument for why they are not female, but it is not a good argument as to why they are not a woman.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:52,
Reply)
You are biologically male.
But come stay the night and I'll make you my woman.
Female - Sex
Woman - Gender
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:36, Reply)
Sewomantics.
The trans activist in my imagination isn't as bogged down by technical/academic terminology as the trans activist in your imagination.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:54,
Reply)
I suspect that many trans activists haven't given the subject *nearly* as much consideration as the good folk here have given it over tbe past few days.
The overwhelming post-social media trend seems to be people campaigning for things that they like the sound of, without actually considering what the outcome of those campaigns might be.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:10, Reply)
It's okay though because there's a concern troll for every one of them.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 19:52,
Reply)
Neat trick putting that alamy tag on a selfie.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:27,
Reply)
You're not far off, to be fair!
Reasonably accurate besides the fact that I don't have such large bags under my eyes, I don't drink booze and I don't identify as a woman. I'll give you the rest, though.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:58, Reply)
I'll answer your questions, but I'm concerned that you're turning this into a personal attack. I'll not engage with that.
"So here’s a couple of questions for you, let’s go from first principles. Why do you think trans women are women?, who are you including as “trans women” in the phrase “trans women are women”? and in what circumstances might you doubt a male person’s claim to be a woman?"
"I can tell you my answer to all those questions, confidently, articulately and from a position of compassion for trans people while not blindly accepting every claim. I can also say exactly what it would take for me to change my mind, and will read anything you point me to that substantively addresses these issues."
Please tell us your answers.
I think we should treat trans women as women because they tell us they are. I would include anyone who tells me that they are a trans woman, or as they'd more likely say, that they are a woman, in that group.
I would doubt a person's stated gender identity if they appeared to be insincere.
This is the same principle I would apply to anyone's claim about their identity - whether they're telling me that they're Christian, Scottish, vegetarian, a swimmer, or a girl or boy. Usually these identities don't come with any victimisation - but a trans identity often does.
Being a trans person when your body doesn't look like your gender is really tough. It opens a person up to real violence and persecution. People don't do this trivially. Even if we come to fully accept the rights of trans people to self-gender, those who don't easily "pass" as their living gender will still be subjected to misgendering, even if that's only by accident by someone who's otherwise well-meaning.
Victimisation of out trans people is a strong force that I think will sort the jokers from the genuine.
Stonewall have conducted research on persecution of trans people:
www.stonewall.org.uk/lgbt-britain-trans-report
The GMC and Mind have guidance on trans mental healthcare:
www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-hub/trans-healthcare#mental-health-and-bridging-prescriptions
www.mind.org.uk/information-support/tips-for-everyday-living/lgbtiqplus-mental-health/about-lgbtiqplus-mental-health/
So my point is that it's not trivial to come out as trans, and no-one would claim they're a trans man or woman lightly. So I'll believe someone who tells me so.
"And here's one more question for you.
How do you square “it’d be silly to expect me to put forth the opposing position too!” with your other assertion of “nothing about us without us”?""
Yes, there are other points of view, but we've got you and others who share those views who are happy to express them. There's no need for me to promote a view that I don't hold, while others are already so strongly doing so.
Aside from restating this, I can't see the relationship between saying trans voices should be included in any discussion on trans issues, and my saying that I won't promote anti-trans positions.
If you think this point is important, please spell it out simply and clearly so that I can understand.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 13:47,
Reply)
My question wasnt
“Why do you treat trans women as women”, but
“Why do you think trans women are women”
The distinction is that I would also accept that a male person who says they are a woman is indeed a trans woman. Where we diverge is that I don’t believe trans women are women, as I’ve not heard a non sexist definition of “woman” that would include male people who say they are women.
“Because they tell us they are” isn’t an answer, and certainly isn’t a compelling reason for anyone else to agree with you. That’s because a male person is not a woman by an existing definition, so all you have done is decided to remove any meaning from the term “woman”. You’re welcome to do that, but you haven’t provided a good reason for anyone else to do so.
You mention sincerity, but how are you measuring sincerity? It seems likely to me that a performance of femininity is your criteria, if not, what is a sincere trans identity and an insincere one? Examples, please? Are you able to accept that while you have a “sincerity” filter, others of us have a “reality” filter - we]here we don’t share the idea of an innate, gendered soul and so don’t accept male people are literally women, regardless of sincerity? Can you outline why I should be forced to believe otherwise, lest I be considered a bigot?
I suspect you would doubt a claim to be a vegetarian that was made by a person who was openly eating meat in front of you. I think you’d doubt a claim to be Christian by somebody who attended mosque daily.
I suspect that while you might think “he can call himself a vegetarian if he wants”, you’d understand if he was asked to leave a vegetarian space if he turned up and was clearly eating meat while saying that it didn’t matter if his behaviour was the opposite of what a vegetarian is, what mattered is that he IS a vegetarian and people needed to respect that.
So what would be your gender equivalent of a meat eating vegetarian? Mine would be a male telling me that they are a woman. What would the insincerity be as far as you’re concerned? Masculine presentation? Again, you’re forced to engage with the fact that you clearly believe that femininity = womanhood.
You haven’t yet given a good reason as to why you think “woman” describes an identity and what that identity comprises when a male claims it.
You’ve gone on to ignore every other question, and to simply reiterate that being trans is tough. I don’t doubt that having gender dysphoria is tough; I dispute that a male who has gender dysphoria is a woman for all intents and purposes.
You go on to say “when your body doesn’t look like your gender”. That looks a lot like you’re discussing a separation of mind and body, and is a statement of belief, not of fact. You’re describing discomfort with one’s sex, and discussing “gender” as a ghost in the machine. I reject that notion - we *are* our bodies. And wanting to be the opposite sex is not a compelling reason to think we are actually the opposite sex, as the fact of our sexed bodies is a reality, and the implications of being a member of the female sex is that you have life experiences that are exclusive to members of the female sex.
I’m not concerned about whether people come out as trans trivially or after much thought - my concern is what I’m supposed to do as a result of that. If a person comes out as trans and wants protection from harm as a result, they have my support. If they come out as trans and demand to be recognised as being a member of the opposite sex to all intents and purposes, overwriting the concept of sex with the concept of an innate gender identity, I will maintain that that is an unreasonable demand, as I don’t share that belief and will not reshape reality around a belief I don’t hold.
When someone says they are trans, I believe that they are trans. I don’t believe they are a member of the opposite sex to their actual sex. My question was why you believe that they are.
You have casually dismissed opposing views as bigotry and as ignorance. I’m here telling you that I have studied this at length, examined all sides, and found trans activism to be regressive and sexist. You don’t have to promote opposing views in order to engage with what the opposing view is; you have failed to do so.
Here’s a challenge for you - I suspect you see me as anti trans. Tell me a shift you think it’d be reasonable for me to make in my position, and why you think that shift is necessary for me to move away from the “evil” you mentioned earlier. Do that, and I will read think and explain either why I will do so, and why I won’t. Deal?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:01, Reply)
Deal. My response to your challenge then is this: stop conflating sex and gender, and accept the WHO definitions.
Gender is a social construct.
It is associated with, but not exclusively dependent on, sexual characteristics. It is an identity we assume when we behave in ways that align with societal gender norms.
We have "girly girls" and "manly men", or "girly boys" and "butch women" (using common pejoratives) - and alongside that, we can have people with female sex organs who live as men, and people with male sex organs who live as women.
If gender is the characteristics of women and men that are socially constructed, then someone who lives with those characteristics IS a man, or a woman, as defined by those characteristics.
I suspect you may not agree with that definition. You've repeatedly conflated sex and gender. But these are the definitions used by the WHO:
www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions
- and by the UK government:
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21
I've not suggested that there's a mind-body duality (nor would I, it's not something I believe), but there absolutely is a difference between gender and sex. The experience that trans people tell us is exactly that pre-transition, they feel their body doesn't fit their gender.
So using those internationally agreed definitions, from medical organisations, I believe that yes, you should "overwrite the concept of sex with the concept of innate gender identity".
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:38,
Reply)
I am not conflating sex and gender
The conflation of sex and gender is inherent in trans activism’s argument that gender identity determines and overwrites sex categories.
In the absence of your activism having an actual definition of “woman”, a male who says “my identity is woman” *is* saying that in all practical terms they are a member of the opposite sex.
Don’t be disingenuous; I’ve done this before.
You’re the person who said you’d look for “sincerity”, so tell me - what is an insincere trans woman?
Describe such a person without using expectations of behaviour or appearance associated with sex. You can’t. And you’re still fundamentally, wilfully misunderstanding the opposition. I *know* there are men who aren’t “manly” - it’s gender ideology that suggests feminine men are women.
But you still can’t define your terms, so tell me your definition of “woman”. Non circular, please.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:17, Reply)
For avoidance of all doubt
Trans activism’s whole thing is conflating sex with gender. Here’s how:
“Your innate sense of self (gender identity) determines the sex category you can place yourself in” IS what trans activism demands. It’s why Hubbard’s gender identity ends up with Hubbard competing in the category created for female physiology.
It is obfuscation on your part to accuse opponents of the conflation, when what we do is use clarity of language to point out that you are using self declared sense of self to mean a person should be considered to be the opposite sex.
You don’t actually recognise the right of female people to have places reserved only for female people, so it’s you guilty of the conflation, I’m just observing it, using language that enables me to describe it. Linguistic tricks won’t work on me - I will keep you to clarity. So unless you respect that female people can have spaces for female people only, you don’t get to say that this isn’t about sex.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:27, Reply)
My post below took a while to type
so these messages were not here when I wrote it.
IMO it is vital to not conflate sex and gender.
It is exactly that which is causing this whole issue. There are some feminists who want female only spaces, and want to defend what female is.
Call yourself a man or woman if you want, it doesn't and shouldn't matter, but you can't turn yourself from a female into a male, or vice versa.
If a space is for women, then all women, including trans women, should be allowed in. If a space is for females only, then sorry, it's for females only even if they identify as a man.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:01,
Reply)
I don't recognise "female spaces" as excluding trans women, no - partly because that is illegal to do.
I've given you my definition of "woman" - it's the WHO definition, the UK law's definition.
The law says that a trans person's gender identity is protected. Excluding someone from a space on the basis of that trans status is not lawful.
In response to your question about when I would doubt someone's gender identity claims, I used their sincerity as my personal test for agreeing with the gender identity of person. If the person appears to be sincere in their statement, then I choose to accept it. If you can't imagine what I mean by that, I really don't know how I could possibly explain it to you.
There is no such thing as an "insincere trans woman". Such a person is lying - they are not a trans person.
I'm only responding to you here because originally you called me out by name in your post to that TERF's blog, and made bad faith arguments against a principle I advocate.
If you're going to continue to brush off the legal definitions I've presented, then I can only assume you're not interested in discussion.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:23,
Reply)
" If you can't imagine what I mean by that, I really don't know how I could possibly explain it to you.
There is no such thing as an "insincere trans woman". Such a person is lying - they are not a trans person."
I admire this allyship, but in practice how on earth can it possibly be actioned? This is where it all breaks down for me. There is absolutely no objective truth in this concern, it's all based on personal testimony and how you interpret the validity of that testimony. That makes it incredibly difficult ethically for healthcare professionals involved in trans care if they are required to supervise any kind of medical transition (yes, I know not all trans people seek medical transition - but it is increasing) or authorities for allowing Self ID trans people access to women and girl only spaces.
Why would someone lie? Because people lie all the time. Obviously they're "fake trans people", as you sort of claim, but even so - it's still proves there's no objective truth here. The fact a rapist can change from a male to female prison shows their Self ID claims were believed by the system sincerely and that it caused untold harm. It'd be great to live in a society where we can spot liars, but I think you'd have to be incredibly naive to believe that utopia exists. I'm sure it's a rare occurrence, like much crime thankfully, but that's not how we mitigate risk in terms of sex-based divisions.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:34, Reply)
Whoah, hold up there
You're posting links from Mermaids, a 'charity' even the BBC disowned, a 'charity' that has a laissez-faire attitude to personal data and was fined for it, a 'charity' that lost it's interfering challenge in the Keira Bell case, and yet here you are calling people out for quoting, in your words, a "TERF's blog".
As others have pointed out, you have supplied no credible rebuttal to the encroachment on female's safe spaces, in fact you reiterate it here.
Quite apart from your crusade, it seems to me you simply want to pile opprobrium on those who oppose your unsupportable views by lobbing around pejorative terms like TERF while quoting from discredited organisations, all the while barely disguising a wish to erode further the hard-fought rights of females to their own safe spaces.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:42, Reply)
No it is not illegal
Single-sex service providers can choose to exclude transgender people where there are ''proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim''.
An example given by the Equality Act is that organisers of group counselling for female sexual assault victims could exclude a trans woman if they judged that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.
However, refusing a trans woman entry to the women's toilet in a pub is likely to be unlawful.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:27,
Reply)
If personal testimony is the basis by which someone is/isn't trans...
Then how is it even possible for that testimony to be a lie?
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 12:41, Reply)
Your fundamental mistake
Is in seeing this debate as “trans issues”
From a feminist perspective, the issue is “male people trying to redefine what a woman is when they decide they are one”, and women can and do oppose that. Male people wanting to redefine womanhood is at least as much a *women’s rights issue* as it is a “trans rights” issue.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:40, Reply)
I think now
you are getting closer to the actual argument, and using better (more accurate) terms although you are still mixing them up in sentences like "male people trying to redefine what a woman is".
The term woman is a social construct, to be female means you are able to carry a baby to term. Man is a social construct, but males are able to produce sperm. (let's gloss over the people who are infertile or have other niche medical issues, they are still male and female)
Some females, especially those escaping an abusive partner, want to feel safe in a female only space and, because of the abuse they have suffered, generally at the hands of males, do not feel safe when non-females are there, even if they identify as women. Nobody should have a problem with this. It should be totally fine for there to be female only spaces so that females uncomfortable with the presence of males can enjoy the company of other females safely. This could be because of religion or other factors.
Anyone should be able to identify as any gender they feel matches them, and society should respect that. Nobody should suffer abuse as a result of whatever gender they identify as.
It is not currently medically possible to turn someone from male to female, or vice versa.
It should be a simple matter of expression for a person to be regarded as either a man, a woman, or NB. This should not depend on whether they have had surgery, or how they dress, or what hairstyle they have.
When it is said that Trans people want to redefine what a woman is, some people misunderstand and think they are trying to redefine 'female' and I think a lot of the disagreement is coming from that misunderstanding.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:50,
Reply)
If a male person says
“I am a woman”, what is that male person saying about themself? “Woman” only has meaning as the term for an adult human female. It has no social meaning because there are plenty of women who reject gender stereotypes.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:01, Reply)
They are saying
"I am a woman"
What they can't say is "I am female"
Don't conflate the two things yourself now.
What it means for the rest of us is we say Her, She etc, and use the name they want to be called by.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:09,
Reply)
But what meaning
Does the word “woman” convey if it doesn’t mean adult human female?
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:15, Reply)
All blackbirds are black
not all birds that are black are blackbirds.
All adult human females are women (if they identify as such) not all women are adult human females, apparently.
Personally, I thought the best way out of this for everyone was to accept a difference between female and woman, but the person who started all this trans stuff on /Links has doubled down and is saying that trans people are female, which they just aren't.
Woman can be defined legally, female is defined biologically.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:24,
Reply)
Discussion about potential different meanings
Of “woman” and “female” are a red herring, and it’s simply a nonsense to say that “woman” is an identity word, while “female” is the word for sex: you’re basically just repeating assertions that trans activism made 2-3 years ago before it moved onto “gender identity determines what sex you are”
Your point would mean that “ewe” and “doe” and “peahen” are gender identities in other animals, rather than nouns to describe members of the female sex in other species.
It also misses that a handy byproduct of this idea is that it means that whenever people have, for clarity, used the term “female” on social media, they’re met with that Star Trek meme - as if it’s that person using the cold, clinical term by choice, rather than to make it clear which group is being referred to. Ceding control of the vocabulary in this way means that “anti trans bigots” are using the clinical, sciencey, less human sounding words like “female” and “biological”, while trans activism utilises linguistics to get the warm, nice words like “woman” and “kindness” and “inclusion”
The reason I’m trying to pin down trans activist’s working definition of the word “woman” is not because I’m trying to work out what it is, but to illustrate that trans activism wants to remove meaning from these concepts.
The argument “let’s let trans activism have ‘woman’, we’ll use that to mean “innate sense of self, sort of entangled with the idea of what an adult human female is expected to look like and act like”” misunderstands a crucial thing - it’s not that trans activists want the *word* - it’s that what trans activists want is for male people to be considered, in all practical terms, *female people*, and so if the meaning of the word “woman” *were* to be redefined to clearly mean “adult human females comfortable with the gender identity ‘woman’, and male people who call their identity ‘woman’”, then the term “woman” would no longer be enough for trans activists, as it would still put them in a separate category from female people, which is unacceptable to trans activists.
Don’t believe me? Let’s look at it then. If trans activism really *was* just about freedom to call oneself a woman while respecting sex differences, then trans activism would do these things:
* recognise that in public life, the term “woman” has been widely used to refer to members of the female sex, not a gender identity, and so just because something is labelled “women’s” it can’t be assumed to be for both sexes
* recognise that women’s sport exists not to recognise achievements of a gender identity, but to celebrate female athletes - athletes with female bodies
* recognise that victims of male violence and sexual assault are very likely to require spaces free of male people for treatment and recovery
* recognise the impact that possession of a female body has on female people in workplaces - eg how potential of pregnancy has negatively impacted women’s career opportunities, and recognising by extension that hiring a male person with the identity “woman” doesn’t actually show that employers are treating female people fairly
* be less quick to affirm that people should have hormonal or surgical intervention to help their bodies look and feel more like those of the opposite sex
* recognise that the group of humans with female bodies have political interests that are sometimes in conflict or at odds with the political interests of people with male bodies, and as such have the right to female only spaces
There is, quite simply, no evidence whatsoever that trans activism will back away from demanding access to this, if only women would clarify when the mean “female” and when they mean “woman, but as the innate identity, not as the word for adult human females”
There is, however, lots of evidence that trans activists actually do want to overwrite the importance of sex with the idea that one’s gender identity should be what determines what our sex is: the idea is that if your gender identity is “woman”, then one’s body is a woman’s body, a female body - labelling it “male” is simply a relic of less enlightened times.
Elsewhere here, I decided I’d refer to Laurel Hubbard using male pronouns - I chose to do so not to be insensitive but because I recognised that even when using preferred pronouns, I was accused of “misgendering” when I used language necessary to make my point: “she shouldn’t compete in the Olympics in the female category, as despite her gender identity, biologically she is male” is, according to mainstream trans activism, an act of misgendering, because observing that Hubbard is male is to deny that Hubbard;s gender identity necessarily overwrites sex. Any reasonable person can see that that is nonsensical, and so - while not feeling completely comfortable with it (I don’t enjoy the idea that a term is hurtful) it made sense to re-evaluate and recognise that once you start using the lexicon demanded by trans activism, you rob yourself of the ability to make a point:
“Laurel Hubbard should not compete in the Olympics, because regardless of how he identifies he remains male” is how I can make a point that has a clear meaning. Using trans activism’s style guide, I would have to say this instead:
“Laurel Hubbard should not compete in the Olympics, because regardless of her gender identity, the fact that she was assigned male at birth should rule her out”
The latter *feels* like excluding a female person from her rightful category because of an accident of birth, with the implication that Hubbard is no longer male; the former uses neutral, factual terms to accurately summarise the issue.
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 10:53, Reply)
It has become clear over the course of this thread that the person who has been posting about trans issues lately does indeed seem to have the opinion that a male who decides they are a trans woman should be regarded legally and otherwise as female, not just as a woman. And that is certainly not the case.
You posted earlier, "I am not conflating sex and gender" yet now you are saying "it’s simply a nonsense to say that “woman” is an identity word, while “female” is the word for sex", which is pretty much the definition of conflating sex and gender.
I don't agree that the two words mean the same, they have distinct meanings that overlap in most cases but not all cases.
A maths example would be two sets, one which contains all integers over 3, the other contains all even integers. Your argument is that, as all even integers from 4 upwards are in the other set, that we may as well put the number 2 in it as well and that it is nonsense to say that 2 is not in that set.
But it isn't in that set, even though there is a lot of overlap. They have distinct and separate definitions, even though one set mostly is contained within the other.
Mostly, not totally.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:27,
Reply)
It would only be conflation of sex and gender
If I accepted that “woman” *is* referring to gender, while “female” refers to sex.
That isn’t actually the case. The most widely used definition of “woman” is still “adult human female”, and neither trans activism nor anyone on this thread has actually provided a non-circular definition of “woman” that carries meaning about what such an identity actually comprises.
Conflation of sex and gender is in using the idea of a gender identity - let’s say, a male person identifying as a woman, and then using that identity to argue that the identity qualifies such a person to access spaces, services, political movements created based on sex.
As I am being perfectly clear about what I mean when I use each term, I’m not conflating anything.
Again, I’ll ask - what is a male person saying about himself if he says “I am a woman”?
I would argue that such a male person is actually saying “I have a personality that matches what I think is appropriate for the opposite sex” - the *act* of identifying as a woman *is* THE conflation of sex and gender upon which every other conflation builds. A male person isn’t a female person, so what *is* the identity to which he claims, and what are these “women’s spaces” that, as you are arguing, exist with respect to needs that arose based on having the gender identity “woman” and not on being an adult human female person?
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:44, Reply)
If “woman” is a gender identity, then “man” also is.
I have never experienced having a gender identity. I don’t believe I have one.
Can you outline what it would look like if I did, and can you clarify whether you
* think I am still a man
* think that in the absence of a gender identity I am actually non-binary
* whether I should, in day to day life, consider that anything I read or hear that pertains to “men” is something I should disregard, since I don’t have the gender identity “man”, and wouldn’t know what one was anyway?
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:56, Reply)
Your logic isn't logic.
What you think follows from your assumptions probably doesn't. This makes it hard to follow your thought patterns and arguments.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 15:49,
Reply)
Indeed
There are very clear definitions for both words, no matter what any of us here think, or are willing to accept.
I've got better things to do than go back and forth with someone who won't even accept the meanings of words and is willing to contradict themselves to avoid any possible deviation from their pre-conceived position.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 17:38,
Reply)
Eh? I’m perfectly willing to accept definitions of words
What then *is* the definition of “woman” that I’m missing? Nobody has provided one. “It’s a gender” isn’t a definition, it’s an evasion of one.
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 19:16, Reply)
So it's not a red herring any more?
Why is “It’s a gender” an evasion of an answer? What do you mean by that?
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 19:35,
Reply)
Because as yet
Nobody has been able to say what the “gender” of “woman” comprises, and in which way it is a discrete category; by the logic used, “man” is also a gender, rather than the noun for an adult human male. So what is the difference between the genders of “man” and “woman” - what constitutes a “man” gender, what constitutes a “woman” gender?
Without actually being able to say what differentiates the genders, the concept of “woman as gender identity” males no sense: if woman is a gender identity, what *is* it? Trans activism can’t say - all it actually means is that it’s a word that male people can claim if they want it. In which way do these genders map onto sex in a way that makes a compelling case for a gender identity to overwrite and determine sex categories, as in the case of Hubbard.
Trans activism has no answer to this question, because answering it would mean conceding that it is referring to femininity and masculinity.
What *is* this innate sense of gender identity that is/was shared by Mo Mowlam, Katie Price, Megan Rapinoe, Hedy Lamarr, Caitlyn Jenner, Queen Elizabeth, Margaret Thatcher, Mariah Carey and Tilda Swinton? What do they all have in common? If they *dont* have anything in common, what is the usefulness of this idea that they have a shared gender identity? Are you able to give, say, five examples of things that characterise people with the gender identity “woman” and five things that categorise the gender identity “man”, without using sexist stereotypes? I can guarantee that you can’t, and without it, the idea that “woman” is a gender word but doesn’t have any intrinsic meaning is *literally* male people appropriating a useful term - the word for female humans - and stripping it of meaning for the benefit of male people.
My point is that they don’t have a shared gender identity - most of the people listed above have in common that they are *female*, and so use “woman” in the common understanding as the word to describe adult female humans, while one of them uses the word to describe that they believe they have a woman’s inner sense of self. That person however, has no ay whatsoever of knowing what it is to experience life as a female person, so “gender identity” remains a nebulous belief system.
Feel free to take it out of the realms of the nebulous and into something substantial by explaining what constitutes a “woman” gender identity….
(, Tue 17 Aug 2021, 12:09, Reply)
I see your problem (without reading all that bollocks, seriously tl;dr)
You say "“man” is also a gender, rather than the noun for an adult human male."
But it's both! A lot of words that describe sex also describe gender, and vice versa.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Tue 17 Aug 2021, 14:05,
Reply)
Then what is it describing when used to refer to “gender”?
You’re now saying man means “sex” AND “gender”, while saying that I am the one conflating the terms, and yet you can’t actually say what differentiates the gender “man” from the gender “woman”
Yes, my post is long. Because unpacking trans activism’s obfuscation requires patience and scrutiny of implications. So let’s hear it - what does the “gender” of “man” entail? What good reason is there to use a word that is associated with sex to describe one’s experience of self? What purpose is served by using this - apparently differing - concept, as a qualifying status into spaces and services that were clearly designed for members of a sex, rather than an internal sense of self that -apparently - isn’t about sex?
(, Wed 18 Aug 2021, 10:00, Reply)
The assumption isn't that all trans women are sex pests
But that sex pests will take advantage of mixed-sex spaces to abuse women. That seems like a reasonable assumption to me.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 12:52, Reply)
Its kind of that, but not quite.
It’s not so much “there are genuine trans people and there are also predators and it’s tricky to tell them apart”: it’s “what every trans woman has in common is that they are male. Male people pose a statistical risk to female people”
So the point isn’t that evil bigots want to exclude trans women from women’s spaces because they’re trans - it’s that many female people maintain that excluding male people from female spaces is a legitimate act of exclusion, and that accommodating male people’s beliefs about themselves is not and should not be their obligation
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 13:04, Reply)
Indeed
good summation
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 0:26,
Reply)
There is currently
a male with a GRC, in a women's prison, who was convicted of sex crimes against women, and who has not had reassignment surgery, and they have already sexually assaulted other women there.
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/02/trans-women-with-sex-offence-convictions-in-female-jails-lawful-rules-judge
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:06,
Reply)
I have more to say about this
I just can't for the life of me remember what it was
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 12:43,
Reply)
Obviously I have no idea what it means to be trans or suffer gender dysphoria,
but I do have concerns over a lack of long-term studies into well-being amongst this undoubtedly marginalised group. There's been more than a few whistle blowers from the world of trans healthcare and mental health who have noticed treatment of other mental health problems are often sidelined in favour of some kind of transitory treatment - the thinking understandably being that's the main source of suffering for the patient. Be there is a lot of emerging evidence to a link with autism with gender dysphoria, for example. That doesn't mean I "don't believe them". But having spoken with people who work in mh myself, I believe there is an overall concern regarding long-term wellbeing and undiagnosed risk in other areas. For example, there's no robust evidence the risk of suicide falls after any kind of medical transition in the longer-term. I know not all trans men/women seek medical transition - and I absolutely would not stop anybody wishing to dress how they please - but data shows an increasing number are seeking physical change, particularly young girls. Obviously I don't have a fucking clue as I'm sure I'll be shown in reply, but I can't help but worry this increase in referral might be a time-bomb of future litigation against the NHS. And its correlation with the rise in social media might not be incidental. I personally don't view that concern as "transphobic" - although I am sure that it will be labelled as such in reply. But, for example, if we exercise concern when an individual "changes race" or has their nose surgically removed to "become an orc", I struggle to see why exhibiting concern for a young girl wishing to be a boy is any different? We're not a hermaphroditic species. Recognising somebody's birth sex is very hard to override in society's innate perceptions - and trans people suffer horrible abuse. Ethically, I wonder how mh practitioners feel about that. Perhaps when there's more robust long-term studies my concern will dissolve.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 13:02, Reply)
Good, relevant points
But you mention belief.
My position is that I don’t know what it means to “believe” a male person who says they are a woman: Male people aren’t women unless I use a definition of the word specifically created to include male people as women. I can’t rationally believe a male person is in the same category as all women, in the same way as all women, because it’s not true.
If I’m asked to believe someone is trans - well that’s not even an issue: trans rights can and should be designed based on recognising people as being “trans”, rather than based on categorising themselves into the opposite sex. A trans rights activism based on designing a set of rights specific for trans people as trans people is a good aim, and one that doesn’t require any belief
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 13:11, Reply)
I understand
I just find it somewhat baffling how objective reality is being sidelined in favour of subjective testimony on this issue, by many professionals too, I might add - or it seems to me that it is.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 13:35, Reply)
It would very much depend on which mental health professionals.
A counsellor would have a very different way of operating versus a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:18,
Reply)
Is gender a 'zero sum' thing.
Does one person's right to identify as a particular gender on the basis of psychology devalue or de-legitimise someone else's right to identify as the same gender on the basis of biology?
(
notoolsovernight you're all luvvly an' 'orrible, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:32,
Reply)
there's a few conflicts here
there a conflict about definition and category. Who defines it, do other have to accept that definition. For trans they want to define words like women or man as a function of gender identity assertion. Some think it's a function of biology. I think it's a combination identity, biology, and lived cultural experience that define the term women, but language is meaning we agree on. then theres the issue that should we force trans people to use the traditional definition? should they force the rest of society to accept and use their definition, by legislation or by shaming those who don't as seems to be the case now. If we do define them as the term women, does it follow that they should inherit all the rights of women despite their differences? What impact will that have on the rights women currently have to separate women-only spaces away from men. It's complex and theres a lot of side issues. Sport, prison, family court, family violence, business grants, bafta categories, health services there's hundreds, perhaps thousands of areas where women are currently treated differently or have different services to men, so there are competing rights. it's not a zero sum game, though I will say the attention and interest the debate gets, when it's quite small numbers, is a reflection of the importance we place on gender. It matters to us even if we pretend it doesn't. There's research across different cultures that shows that it's one of the first things we do in any social interaction is try to establish the gender the person we are interacting is, and we're very good at it.
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:59,
Reply)
One solution
that I am sure nobody will agree with, is to have more than 2 genders.
Men, Women, Tmen, Twomen, and NB plus whatever else you want.
Each with their own toilets, sporting categories, help groups, abuse shelters, everything.
It would totally end the argument, which is one reason why nobody on either side will like the idea.
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 17:44,
Reply)
as in a lot of things with competing rights, there's no compromise that will make all sides happy
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Tue 17 Aug 2021, 2:18,
Reply)
Ladies getting themselves involved in sociological and philosophical debate?!
Good God, man. Next you'll be suggesting they learn to drive cars! Where will we be then, eh? Eh?! Who's going to boil your pants and make you cheese and mustard sandwiches when Betty is out trying to navigate the A37 in her motor vehicle. The world's gone mad, I tell you! Mad!
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:27, Reply)
It's not saying much, granted.
But compared to Reddit these days, this is like listening to a debate at the Royal Institution.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:21, Reply)
Stephen Fry frying at his best...
NSFW
Not been on the gay shift in years...
I once ended up in Mr Fry's flat early in the morning with a bag of sweets - could be a fesshole story.
We have a few mutual friends. And I have massive respect.
This is his contribution to a seminar about Catholicism. The full version of other opinions is also available.
NSFW for religious nutters might be being upset in work, and possibly Catholic.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 2:15, Reply)
I work in a Catholic School.
There are times I want to stand up and shout "THIS CAN'T BE WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVE!" in assemblies.
Long said, there's nothing like religious people to put you off religion.
(
The Togaboy The world will end on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 4:55,
Reply)
very eloquent
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 4:57,
Reply)
I watched the whole debate a few years back
- still, my favourite bit of it all is in this vid, starting at 16:19.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:02,
Reply)
Whilst I used to find it interesting at the time,
I do think the new atheism stuff from c2010 is responsible for all the humourless DEBATE ME shit you get nowadays.
Somewhere the humanism got dropped.
(
monkeon schmonkeon, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 12:25,
Reply)
Exceptional.
Fry is masterful at putting across an opinion that holds a mirror up to everything that is wrong. Excellent link
(, Tue 17 Aug 2021, 1:08, Reply)
This would be banned now
smoking is bad mmkay
(
The Ann Coulter Fan Club Babylon is burning at, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 22:35,
Reply)
Is there no end to the evil Austria has inflicted upon the world?
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 22:52,
Reply)
wait 'til you hear his Basement Tapes bootlegs
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 0:13,
Reply)
So this is the ubermensch
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 3:00,
Reply)
Isn't smoking still allowed
as long as it is part of a performance?
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 9:54,
Reply)
The balls harden
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:31,
Reply)
Balls of steel
And cocks of glass.
Still very satisfying to watch though.
(
VicJameson : fucking internet virgins since, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:51,
Reply)
Silverrrrrr-Hawwwwwks.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 19:03,
Reply)
Ah
Didn't realize it was GC, must have been posted on youtube multiple times and have a different URL
(
My Name was saying these words inside your head on, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 23:26,
Reply)
I'm impressed by the quality of the welding.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:14,
Reply)
Slightly GC but still fun
www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6iv1aulRT8
(
notoolsovernight you're all luvvly an' 'orrible, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 23:30,
Reply)
For Cod's sake. Sturgeon plaiced under arrest for having a roughy.
Rather brill, really.
Puns aside, I've never had much interest in the pinchy-faced wee clown. Didn't realise she had a sister, she looks a bit like the type for having a scrap.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:20, Reply)
Not much joicy gossip in that dry BBC report.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:02,
Reply)
What the fuck has this got to do with anything?
(
RompaStompa Stick it up your jumper, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:18,
Reply)
Don't you know?
Having an embarrassing sibling means progressive politicians are unfit for office. E.g., Malik Obama, Piers Corbyn, both Millibands....
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:16,
Reply)
To be honest, it just seemed like good opportunity for a pun or two.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 19:28, Reply)
Apparently...
They were both battered.
(
Sonic James Doom forgetting the date since... umm..., Sun 15 Aug 2021, 20:58,
Reply)
Doctor acting like a vet
(my tax payment for being too serious earlier)
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:54,
Reply)
If?
She just sounds like a normal paediatrician to me.
(
jonbob loves you, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 23:08,
Reply)
Woozy Olympics
I made this!
I had this idea watching the synchronised swimming at the Olympics in 1992, while very stoned. Finally got round to realising it, enjoy x
(
fred zeppelin (Taylor's version), Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:38,
Reply)
Thanks for saying
It's closer to ballet really, physically very demanding but as yet not a competition.
(
fred zeppelin (Taylor's version), Sun 15 Aug 2021, 7:16,
Reply)
Man, I wish I was still doing club visuals...
I'd rip off this idea in a heartbeat!
(
Happosai _,,,,_(O ; o)_,,,, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 18:44,
Reply)
Domestic cats (Felis catus) prefer freely available food over food that requires effort
"Contrafreeloading is the willingness of animals to work for food when equivalent food is freely available. This behavior is observed in laboratory, domesticated, and captive animals. However, previous research found that six laboratory cats failed to contrafreeload."
(
Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:28,
Reply)
They didn't mention cheap food v easily available mice.
My young cat regularly examines food plates, if unsatisfactory, it arrives back with mouse.
I've tried different cat foods on different cats, get it wrong and the local mice are fucked.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:28,
Reply)
Nothing about them without them
Sophie speaks about the validity of "trans debate".
To paraphrase Stonewall's successful slogan: "some people are trans, get over it".
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 9:24,
Reply)
Nothing about this video in particular,
But can I just say, 99.9% of the time I don’t watch, or read, stuff on b3ta links for opinions.
Edit: and just to make sure there is a fun link or two
youtu.be/UtkeIV3rsZI
youtu.be/c0RkD-0bnMo
(
Thrill_My_Chinchilla is old and unimproved, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 9:28,
Reply)
Oh god, ^this^
I've lost two fingers scrolling past cunts lecturing each other on their personal opinions that they seem to think everyone else is fascinated by.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 10:35, Reply)
As a cunt,
Who also self ID's a cunt, I am offended by this.
All I want is cunt-only spaces.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:07, Reply)
It is a problem
Twitter for example makes everyone come across a self promoting cunt. Just being there makes you look like a cunt even if you're not in real life
(
Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:21,
Reply)
But just being there DOES make you a cunt.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:06,
Reply)
You only gone and fucking jinxed it
Thanks a lot
(
Fadgebadger Sweaty sumo wanks for everyone!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:11,
Reply)
Yeah, sorry.
Genuinely.
But I'll not stop till I stop seeing anti-trans shit here. It's not enough for me to ignore it and disagree in silence.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 11:50,
Reply)
So you're on a one mxn crusade to change the minds of every transphobic beta member? Good luck, pal.
Just ignore them and move on with your life. Some people are anti-trans. Get over it.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:02, Reply)
No, I'm just giving trans folk a voice by posting their own answers to transphobic commentary
Ignoring evil is not an option
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:25,
Reply)
Evil is a bit strong, no?
Ignorance, maybe. But you know what they say - you can't reason somebody out of something they didn't reason themselves into.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:28, Reply)
I'm using "evil" here because I see the anti-trans position as fundamentally a human rights issue
Just as I would call anti-Semitism, or white supremacy evil.
But don't get me wrong - I don't believe that anti-trans people are evil in themselves. Evil is an activity, not a state.
I like your point about non-rational positions, but it's a bit depressing, and I'll not give up just because it seems difficult.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:50,
Reply)
Keep at it.
Bigots need to be told they're bigots. They can't work it out for themselves.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:08,
Reply)
have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong in some of your assertions?
rather than to what degree of evilness those who disagree with you possess. you probably think you're on the side of right because you're well-intentioned and empathetic to this one group, but plenty of people have done awful things throughout history believing themselves similar.
There's plenty of examples of competing rights in this world, and few without consequence. The rights of walkers to free access to trails can compete with rights of motorbike riders and the rights of landholders. The right to assert a change of identity under law can compete with the rights of women to have segregated and safe spaces, the rights of prisoners, the rights of other citizens to assert their own interpretation and labelling of the gender of someone they interact with, the rights of sports competitors. Your "everyone who doesn't agree to all the rights asserted by this one group is evil, because I know the truth" sounds a terribly intolerant starting point to me in a complex issue
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 1:11,
Reply)
I’m not anti-trans, but I am anti-lies.
Trans women are not women, trans women are trans women. The slogan ‘Trans women are women’ is a self defeating logical fallacy. I’m sorry if you think that statement is anti-trans or evil, but it’s not, it’s just basic medical science.
Anyway, I’d love to stay and bicker, but I must go and pick up my new hoover, which cost more than my first car. What progress we have made in a quarter of a century!
P.S. That vid was about Hillsborough, or at least as much of the angry rant I could bear was.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:23,
Reply)
The Hillsborough reference was a frame for talking about the lies that the press peddle
Your position that gender is entirely a sex characteristic is not shared by the medical profession - here's the BMA's statement on the matter.
www.bma.org.uk/media/3584/bma-submission-reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act.pdf
Have fun with you new vacuum. Inflation is crazy, isn't it? My first car was 50 quid (+150 quid to get it roadworthy). I spent that much on fuel last time I filled up.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:43,
Reply)
I think his position is that Trans Women generally have an X and a Y chromosome, whereas a biological woman has two X's.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:49, Reply)
X & Y chromosomes are not completely binary
Besides which, sex is not gender:
www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21
This has been fairly long established in law.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:16,
Reply)
I'm well aware that sex is not gender.
I've said about as much as I'm willing to say on this subject. As others have mentioned, it's getting a bit fucking tired now. Its such a complex topic with so many facets that very few people are going to be singing off completely the same hymn sheet. Likewise, it's a very emotionally charged subject for some folk - so unless your subjective opinions on the matter align perfectly, there's always going to be fervent discourse.
I'm all for Trans Rights. And I'm all for individuals having the freedom to identify/dress/present as whatever gender and sex they feel most comfortable with. But at the end of the day, are we living in a society that should or could allow Trans-Women the same freedoms that biological women have? Not even close. Is that a bad thing? Probably. But we're at least a generation away from making any real progress on that issue.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:42, Reply)
Thanks for the support, seriously.
The kids of my friends seems to be quite happy with trans rights, they've got no problem with trans men or women in their spaces.
It'd be nice to think that the equality in rights and practice that trans people deserve is starting right now - if it takes that generation to settle down, that'll be sad, but I hope at least we're on the route.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:12,
Reply)
That’s just it though.
As you say, the kids have no problem with trans men or women, nor should they, nor do I. The only significant problem I have with the whole thing is crystallised in that slogan I mentioned. Just don’t tell me a trans woman is a woman. That’s doublethink. War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.
Update on how well the hoover sucks coming soon.
(
Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:40,
Reply)
So you've got the fleshlight vacuum attachment then.
(
FeralCatMan Long ads need comments sections, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 20:18,
Reply)
I've done a bit of online gaming in lockdown to pass the time
and based on that I've come to the conclusion that most people under 30 are horrible cunts, the younger they are the worse
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:37,
Reply)
maybe it's just the gaming community, rather that the general populace, granted
but it doesn't exactly make me think the next generation is going to be some chill tolerant adults. they'll just pretend to be for the opportunities it offers to be sanctimonious and mean. i don't say anything, I've got kids sleeping and what am I gonna do that that their parents haven't, but I observe the little shits
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 1:20,
Reply)
What about the rights of women and girls
who have a right to dignity and safety?
Yes, be who you want, just like everyone else, but please don't ask for the right to make others uncomfortable because of that
Do you believe male-sexed people have a right to undress and shower in communal changing rooms with teenage girls?
How does a girl in a changing room know that someone who enters in possession of a dick is or is not an interloper?
I don't give a flying one what people want to be or who they want to fuck, but I don't like it when it starts it starts to interfere with people's lives who did not want for nor ask for the consequences of those life choices. It seems to me that women are the ones being marginalised and forgotten here.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:27, Reply)
Trans people deserve not to be treated as sex criminals.
I believe that gay men and boys are entitled to change in the same room as straight men and boys, and similarly for gay women in amongst straight women. We generally don't consider this to be an issue, because most of us have stopped thinking that being gay makes you a pervert or sex pest.
That's my own answer.
Now, I'll quote a long bit by a trans activist group, because I always want to use their own words to argue for their rights:
If we legislate to police gender in toilets, then how and at what point do we decide who is and isn’t a woman? Will all facilities require a gender checking attendant? Do tall, broad or deeper-voiced women face being challenged for ID to prove their gender? Will women with short hair who dress in traditionally-male clothing be asked to prove their sex? Will a woman be forced to show a stranger their body to pass a gender test? What, precisely, would happen if a woman were judged, in one way or another, to be a man? Will she be arrested or fined or removed from the premises? Will all women need to carry a mandatory ‘woman certificate’ or will only trans women be forced to carry proof that they have a GRC? None of this sounds remotely progressive and none of it sounds like the empowerment of women.
(mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/safety-and-dignity/)
There's also the legal aspect of deny spaces to trans people: Here's an article by an Oxford lecturer about trans exclusion and the law:
ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/gym-use-and-changing-rooms-the-illegality-and-chilling-effect-of-transgender-segregation/
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:52,
Reply)
You didn't answer the question
How does a girl in a changing room know that someone who enters who has a dick is or is not an interloper? Where is their comfort and dignity in those situations?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:57, Reply)
She doesn't know, of course.
How does she know that a person in that same space who has a vagina isn't a pervert or predator or whatever?
Assuming that trans people are sex pests is not helpful, and we should get over it - in just the same way we long ago got over thinking that gay people might be sex pests.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:07,
Reply)
You are royally missing the point here
Put yourself in the position of that girl.
Into the changing room wanders a guy with his dick out. What is she to think in that moment? Oh fuck, here's a bloke who's wandered in to sexually assail us, or here's a trans-person of no threat whatsoever?
In that moment you are exposing that girl to threat and harm, and my point is, why would you intentionally expose a girl to harm?
Your argument is absolute bollocks, by the way, and you know it. The conclusion of your argument is that any bloke should be allowed in women and girl's safe spaces, and fuck the consequences.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:11, Reply)
But you'd allow lesbians in the female dressing room, right?
Your argument seems to be based on the believe that everyone with a cock is out to rape women.
(
Tusk knows where you live, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:35,
Reply)
Utterly wrong
What I suggested is that neither you nor I nor anyone else can tell me how a girl in that situation would react if someone walked in with their dick out. The point is what are they to think? In their safe space, here's a guy with his dick out. Do they think - here's someone up to no good, or here's someone of no harm whatsoever? The conclusion to your line of thinking would be - naked men in girls and women's safe spaces? Yeah, fuck it, can't see anything wrong with that. Where is the consideration for the wishes, comfort and dignity of the girls and women here? Girls and women see naked women in their spaces all the time, but not naked men, and it seems to me that you don't have a problem with their shock, comfort and dignity being compromised
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:52, Reply)
Some people are uncomfortable with public nudity altogether, I don't think that's healthy.
Meanwhile in Scandinavia, people are outraged when people enter unisex nude spaces without being fully nude.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:47,
Reply)
If you took 20 random guys, and let each one in the women's changing room
you'd be unlikely to get any rapists, but I'd put money on at least 1 of them being weird and pervy and making all the women feel really uncomfortable in a way they hardly ever get with other women. probably more.
And you'll also get what I call the priest-effect. I don't think being a priest makes you paedo, but I reckon nonces seek out the priesthood because it gives them access to young boys.
Transwoman won't make you a sex offender or rapist, but if transwomen, like priests, get easy access to women when they're segregated and vulnerable, you will get some fuckers that become transwomen because it offers this. Like there's some in the US who think their jail time will be easier as trans in a womens prison (along with some who turned into rapists). And the BMA's proposal I had a quick look at is to make it even easier, basically signing a stat dec to change gender rather have a psyche assessment
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:52,
Reply)
You too are missing my point
It's about the comfort and dignity of the women and girls. They see naked women in their safe spaces all the time, but not naked men.Are you really suggesting here that people with dicks should be allowed in their safe spaces and fuck their wishes, comfort and dignity here? I'm dismayed at the encroachment on women's safe spaces
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:55, Reply)
no I got that, and agree
I was just pointing out that there are more common lesser behavioural issues than rape in their "so you think all transwomen are rapists"
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:08,
Reply)
Would you be comfortable with and adult (who appears to be) male walking around with their cock out infront of your adolescent daughter in the swimming pool changing rooms?
Would their reassurance that they identify as female be enough to alleviate your concern?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:09, Reply)
do they have a boner?
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:10,
Reply)
then I'm out
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:28,
Reply)
as a serious point, sexual and family violence and harassment is strongly gendered
it's mostly male on female violence. this is the reason why you see lots of women's refuges for family violence, but very few for men.
So are you positing that when a man identifies as a woman, i.e. a male to female transgender, that choice changes their risk of committing gendered violence?
it's an interesting debate as it cuts to the heart of the difference between identity and reality. Presumably other gendered risks don't change with identity, like the higher risk women have of getting multiple sclerosis. Even though there have been some high publicity rapes in womens prison committed by male to female transgender, I'd doubt whether there enough data to answer this definitively. And as barst said, it's interesting that you're willing to dismiss the right of women to identify as different from trans people, while supporting the rights of transpeople to identify as different from their birth sex
(
cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:24,
Reply)
Okay
I cannot believe a single opinion has ever been changed by an argument within links though.
(
Thrill_My_Chinchilla is old and unimproved, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:48,
Reply)
Is debate no longer acceptable?
Should people be disallowed from the discussion of certain topics?
Or is it that only certain people should be allowed to discuss them?
Or is it that discussion is open to everyone so long as there is no deviation from some prescribed consensus?
She does make some pretty good points in isolation, but some of them run counter to each other.
For example, she mentions some Daily Mail article (which I'm not defending by the way) talking about trans people attempting to control the media.
Whatever the veracity of that, it doesn't look great when only 2 minutes earlier she was questioning the validity of debate itself.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 12:50, Reply)
The point being made is that debating trans rights assumes that there is a question of whether trans people should have those rights
Debate counters the idea that trans rights are basic human rights - to live without persecution.
We don't debate or discuss whether Jews should be allowed to practice their religion. We don't debate or discuss whether gay men should be allowed to have sex.
As for certain people being allowed to discuss certain topics - no, it's not about exclusion, it's about including the people who are being discussed in the discussion.
Isn't it ridiculous if discussion about the lives of a group of people didn't include those people themselves?
So that's what I'm doing here. It's not a good thing for a discussion about trans rights to be had without the participation of trans people themselves.
(
Invisible Wizard - 13th Level Scrote, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:15,
Reply)
What are we talking about by trans rights though?
There needs to be a definition of what "trans rights" actually encompasses before we can get anywhere.
If we're talking about the rights for basic human needs and participation in society in general, then absolutely there's nothing to debate there.
Trans people deserve to receive service in businesses, to be given due consideration with regards to employment, club membership, and so on.
On a personal level we should show them the same kindness and consideration we would show for anyone else.
But there are some edge cases where there is friction with other people's rights, and how that gets dealt with very much must be the subject of a debate, otherwise we're living in a totalitarian system.
She does makes a good point that certain specific issues which are more contentious, such as sport or bathrooms, get used by the vicious anti-trans lobby as starting points for rallying support.
She's right, they do, and it's sad. Hopefully most people are capable of not conflating those specific issues with the wider issue of basic human rights.
But, that doesn't in any way change the fact that women's sport does have an emerging issue right now that needs to be addressed somehow, or a lot of people are going to be deeply unhappy.
Also, are trans people being excluded from this debate? Maybe I'm missing the point, surely this entire debate stems from trans people standing up and being heard?
Is she saying that trans people aren't represented in the media? That might be true of some older media, fair enough.
But I've seen plenty of trans people themselves making their voices heard, in TV interviews, and online all over the place.
I don't wish to sound dismissive, but as I understand it the debate is happening and plenty of trans people are themselves involved.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 13:27, Reply)
If only there were some way for you to look it up.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:10,
Reply)
Well it means different things to different people,
and in different contexts, right?
I can't exactly look up what the person in front of me thinks it means.
I think it's better instead to talk in more specific terms to actually nail down exactly what we mean.
I saw a pretty whacky video with a transgender person attempting to argue that cisgendered people have no right to not find them attractive,
because they had the right to be found attractive.
That's a pretty extreme position which I would assume most people wouldn't agree with, but in a discussion with that person that would be included in trans rights.
So I just think it's best to nail it down precisely first.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:17, Reply)
People made the exact same arguments in the 50s
questioning the validity of the civil rights movement in the USA, and justifying the attempted ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population of Australia.
The exact same arguments.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:26,
Reply)
Eh? I'm don't believe I follow.
Were you replying to someone else?
What arguments? As far as I'm aware I've not put forward any position or arguments to support it, I'm requesting clarification about the parameters of the discussion.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:58, Reply)
I know, you're "Just Asking Questions." JAQin' it, JAQin' it, JAQin' it JAQ.
What do you mean by civil rights? I saw a pretty whacky newsreel with a coloured person attempting to argue that white people have no right to not find them attractive, because "black is beautiful." That's a pretty extreme position which I would assume most people wouldn't agree with, but in a discussion with that person that would be included in civil rights. So I just think it's best to nail it down precisely first.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:57,
Reply)
Hang on...
do white people have any right to not find black people attractive in your opinion? Genuinely interested in your response.
Without asking questions, how are you supposed to know what you're even talking about? I'm not interested in talking about a slogan, divorced from any kind of meaningful reality... I want to talk about concrete examples of policies that exist but which infringe upon people's rights... or I want to talk about policies that do not yet exist but which would be good for supporting people's rights.
Am I in favour of people not being discriminated against in the workplace? Absolutely yes. If that's the sort of thing that trans rights is, I'm all aboard.
Am I in favour of every little tweet made by every transgender person in the name of trans rights, becoming the basis of policy unquestioningly? No, because some people have a very bad idea of what rights are.
The details matter.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:01, Reply)
If skin colour has any influence on your sexual preferences then you're a horrible racist.
Obviously.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:28, Reply)
If you don't see through this fish soaked straw man, you're either taken in by it or arguing in bad faith.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:38,
Reply)
Straw man?
I asked you for your opinion, since I wasn't entirely sure what point you were getting at by repeating what I said but replacing gender identity with race. I've not even argued against anything you've said?
Trans rights means different things to different people. I want people to be clear in what people mean when talking about things. I don't want to use some definition from the internet if the person I'm talking to has something else in mind. So I'm asking, what exactly are we talking about.
This isn't even remotely arguing in bad faith, it's respectfully engaging in a discussion. I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. I'm not intentionally misrepresenting someone else's argument.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:52, Reply)
From your response I'm not sure you understand what it is you are doing. Good trolling!
But this rejection of an imaginary demand (to be perceived as beautiful by the people who hate you), it's just not very convincing, sorry. All it says is that you'd like your particular dislike for the unlike to be validated and preserved.
Your stubborn refusal to type "define trans rights" into a search engine is not a rhetorical winner, nor is it particularly endearing. You're signalling ignorance as a virtue.
Your last paragraph can be paraphrased: "it's political correctness gone mad." Another similarly convincing argument.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:36,
Reply)
Your paraphrasing
is literally a straw man, and you claim that I'm arguing in bad faith?
I'm pointing out there's lots of takes on what trans rights means, some of which are reasonable, some of which are not, and I want to know what is actually under discussion before discussing it.
If I google trans rights, the first article that comes up is from wikipedia. Would you like me to take the first paragraph or so of that as the working definition of this discussion?
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 18:57, Reply)
Do you think that would be a duscussion worth having?
Do you think humanity will benefit from us publishing a discussion where one of the participants chooses to be more ignorant than they need to be?
My paraphrasing of your argument is a straw man by the nature of the source material. I hoped to illustrate how the exact same argument you are making (an argument in the form of JAQing off to muddy the waters) was made 70 years ago by bigots who opposed civil rights for black people.
As if forcing other people to find someone attractive is codified in any form of legislature, declaration of rights, or constitution anywhere in the world.
Nobody is this asinine. Stop it.
Lol duscussion. I'm a subject line typo machine today.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 19:23,
Reply)
Why are you automatically so combative,
as though I'm somehow your enemy?
I'm not opposing anyone's rights, and I don't know why you're so convinced that I am. I don't know what I've said here that would lead you to that conclusion.
If we're looking at the definition of transgender rights which is loosely described in that wikipedia article (which I would essentially interpret as the same rights as everyone else), then I'm all in favour of it. I don't want to live in a world where trans people, who number among my friends, are oppressed and discriminated against simply for how they feel. If we're looking at legislation, I think gender identity should be a protected category alongside race, religion, sex, sexual orientation etc, if it isn't already. No argument from me there.
But if we're taking the definition of transgender rights as described by certain hardline activists and influencers, some of whom have been pretty vocal with their dodgy takes on the matter, then I'm not in favour of what they're saying. I'd just like to know what the definition is in the context of the discussion.
Hence the need for discussion and debate, so we can sort out the reasonable takes from the unreasonable takes. I'm not trying to muddy any waters, I'm trying to reach a consensus on what constitutes the mud, so that we have filtered waters.
There's a pretty wide spectrum of thought on this multifaceted issue, and I picked an extreme far-out opinion as an example that I reckoned we could all agree was mud that could be discarded. I'm not attributing that opinion to anyone here or ascribing to it any importance to the trans rights movement.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 19:38, Reply)
If I take up a contrary position to yours, that puts our ideas in a kind of conflict. I disagree with you, and I enjoy telling you about it.
Hurrah for you:
Not opposing anyone's rights
Interpreting trans rights as 'the same as everyone else's' (Correct!)
Opposing oppression
Supporting trans people as a protected category against hate crimes etc.
Boo for you:
Defending your right to be upset against a pretend threat from, and JAQ over, 'certain hardline activists and influencers'
Doubling down on your daftness by claiming you're trying to 'filter' (or perhaps 'cleanse') out the extreme views on one side by normalising your own
Are you sure you're not deliberately misunderstanding a message of 'trans is beautiful'? Is your right to call trans people ugly actually under threat?
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 22:06,
Reply)
You clearly just want to have a fight about something.
Someone had the audacity to ask a few questions for clarification, and from that you appear to have extrapolated some edifice of hatred that has no basis in reality.
You've all but accused me of supporting ethnic cleansing, based on literally fuck all. Come on son.
I pointed out my position, not for some kind of brownie points or congratulations, but because you were completely fabricating some viewpoint and attributing it to me.
Saying "hurray for you", as though I wasn't clearly correcting your unfounded assumptions, is just churlish to be honest.
If someone called you a pedo dog botherer, and then you were to point out that you'd never bothered children or dogs,
what kind of cunt would they have to be to then sarcastically congratulate you like you were saying it to impress and not as a direct refutation.
I don't want to call anyone ugly. But yeah, freedom of expression is constantly under threat, and it's something I believe in strongly.
I think that the idea that debate itself is a problem is a dangerous way of thinking, and I don't think that is a particularly unreasonable view to hold.
The point of that extreme example, which we all here agree is absurd I think, is that in an environment where debate is stifled and discussion silenced,
terrible absurdities have tendency to become reality. Without the ability to debate, how can anyone come to a working consensus on sensible
approaches to safeguard rights, without everything getting derailed by the extremists? And that goes for extremists on all sides.
You need open debate for a society to be capable of agreeing to ignore all the nutters.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 23:12, Reply)
While you clearly want to avoid confronting your prejudices even while you look for them to be validated.
Your 'extreme example' is either a misunderstanding or a lie. Either you're a bit thick, or trolling. Which is it?
Why am I not allowed to congratulate you for reducing your ignorance without being called churlish? Is it because of your paranoia?
Why do I say you're paranoid? You claim your freedom of expression is under constant threat from imaginary liberal bigots, so you have to defend your right to call trans people ugly even if you don't want to. Seems perfectly rational, right?
You are acting as an extremist nutter who you should ignore.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:39,
Reply)
My word you're awful.
Freedom of expression is always under threat. The fact that this original video is literally someone objecting to the existence of debate is just one example of this. It's a textbook example of a threat to freedom of expression.
If you want to find the exact extreme video in question it was titled "Your dating preferences are discriminatory" by Riley J. Dennis. She appears to have taken down the original. If you can find it, watch it and decide for yourself whether I misunderstood it or am lying.
You're the only person who has even mentioned trans people and ugliness in the same sentence. You've done it twice now. And the irony of mentioning paranoia when you're desperately seeking hatred where there is none. Someone once told me that discussing anything with a trans activist is impossible, as it's more like dealing with a cult member, and I didn't particularly believe him but I guess he must have met you.
(, Mon 16 Aug 2021, 1:24, Reply)
I have seen SockCooker use the same rhetoric
(replacing the out-group in question with black, Jew, gay, etc, in order to illustrate the bigotry of the situation), but I do it better, and I won't hound you and accuse you of being a paedophile if you make me upset.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 18:46,
Reply)
for those who seem to want society to go to a lot of effort to recognise the genders as non-binary
trans supporters seem to have quite a binary view of the debate. anyone who opposes them is transphobic
Putting aside genetics, hormones, and genitals, I see things a bit like citizenship.
Now somebody could be born in yemen, but now in his mid 30s he's started to see himself more as british. he watches a lot of uk tv and mentally pictures himself as being british. He's never felt comfortable being yemeni, he can't stand hommus. thanks to some new change in the UK citzenship laws, he's able to get naturalised and get a british passport and move to britian. It was difficult and took bravery. He learns english though you can tell from the way talks he's not native, but the law entitles him to call himself british. And when he goes to a work party, he feels a bit of an outcast. His workmates all share common experiences and references of growing up in england that he missed out on and now has to kind of bluff at to pretend to understand what it was like. Sometime he makes mistakes that no brit would make, or tries too hard to be british. none of them grew up in yemen, and most can tell he's foreign, even if some arent sure where they know he wasn't born here. So he lives between worlds, like other people who change their country. British is a legal title, and he can make them call him british, but he is what he is and people can see it
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 14:56,
Reply)
As someone else points out, why can you change sex, but not race?
Rachel Dolezal literally can’t get work now. There are other critical race theory academics who have done exactly the same, and a Democrat Senator was rumbled for the same thing (Elizabeth Warren).
On these shores Oli London identifies as Korean, he has no Korean antecedents and he’s never even been there, or at least hadn’t when he first started claiming he was Korean, maybe he has now, I don’t know. He’s also trans. Why do we believe one transition and not the other?
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 15:59,
Reply)
Who says you can't?
Malaika Kubwa has made a pretty good job of it. Rachel Dolezal was quite clearly just mentally ill.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:25, Reply)
You’re not fooling anyone by replying to yourself.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:36,
Reply)
Don’t mind if I do.
Love your name by the way. But you need a sig with literary pretentions to really finish it off. Think of a really famous quote by a really famous author and mangle it a bit for hilarious results. Something like ‘The ladyboy doth protest too much, methinks’.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 16:52,
Reply)
Hmmm, you’ve gone for a pun.
Did you fail your English lit GCSE?
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:15,
Reply)
You are Gavin Williamson AICMFP.
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Prufrock Lucifer, son of the morning!, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:35,
Reply)
not sure sure if this proves he's not your sock puppet, prufrock, or you're just really poor at inventing dialogue
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cumquat may will not be commenting further on the allegations, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:46,
Reply)
Who says you can’t?
Literally the activist groups that most enthusiastically push trans rights are the ones who are very, very on the ball to recognise cultural appropriation and colonisation, and will get so angry about a Carribean recipe in a weight watchers book that progressives are in zero doubt that a person from a privileged racial background could not identify into oppression.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:35, Reply)
One reason is because sex is real, but there's only one race of humans
since habilis and erectus are no more.
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 14:48,
Reply)
Hey Invisible Wizard
I’m not anti trans. But the current form of trans activism is regressive as fuck and relies entirely on conflating the concepts of sex and gender while hoping nobody notices that that’s what’s happening, while using a linguistic sleight of hand to assert that when male people say “I am female”, they magically reverse the dynamic of sexism and become the most oppressed type of woman.
People like you act as if rejecting some of the claims of trans activism = hate equivalent to homophobia, however that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny at all. Happy to discuss further if you have the inclination to actually understand what progressive opposition to your arguments actually looks like, and why some of us now reject the activism wholesale
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 21:51, Reply)
If you disagree with PETA's methods, you support animal abuse.
If you disagree with anything BLM says, you're a racist.
Etc, etc.
It's ironic, really, that all these overwhelmingly Left-Wing organisations (or their supporters at any rate) end up sounding so bloody fascist.
If you're unwilling to accept that being racist is bad, harming animals is bad, being intolerant to homosexuals and/or people that look a bit different is bad, and so on, then a bunch of quasi-militant virtue signaling fuckwits certainly aren't going to change your mind. Quite the opposite, I'd imagine.
(, Sat 14 Aug 2021, 22:20, Reply)
^ Right wing virtue signalling, complaining about virtue signalling while attempting to call out the irony of the left.
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brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 15:54,
Reply)
Calling out Left-Wing bullshit doesn't make your Right-Wing.
I'm pretty much as centrist as it gets. I took a test and everything.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 18:05, Reply)
I have nothing new to add to this debate
apart from pointing out that the recent long threads on this matter don't seem to include comments by women
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Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 5:11,
Reply)
Or, as far as I can tell, anyone identifying as being trans...
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Happosai _,,,,_(O ; o)_,,,, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:22,
Reply)
True
though statistically that is less anomalous
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Mudface The web isn't callipygian, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 17:59,
Reply)
OK, I’m gonna actually lay out
Exactly what the issues are, in plain speech.
The overall problem with the current form of the trans rights movement is that, unlike every other civil rights movement that has ever existed, it relies not on laying out what it’s demands are, but in hoping nobody notices what it’s demands are because people tend to find those demands unreasonable when they hear them. That’s why trans rights activism relies on superficial analogies - “it’s just like gay rights in the 80s!!” - and not on specific demands - “we want X and we need it because Y”.
Let’s look closer at some aspects of trans rights activism that appears any time it’s discussed.
First:
“Trans rights are human rights”
This is a statement that seems reasonable, but actually completely misrepresents the issues at stake.
The “rights” that are being discussed by those women who get called TERFs are *not* baseline human rights; they are rights and policies specifically written for trans people, specifically to address issues raised by trans people about what they want.
Any given demand for a specific group to have a new right, or a new policy or law may be reasonable or unreasonable, and needs to be argued for and the impact assessed to work out whether it can be accommodated.
However, refusing some of those demands - or reviewing policies that have been introduced without much thought - is not campaigning for “removal of a human right” - human rights are the baseline we all have, and then there may or may not be reason for some groups to have specific rights. Trans people are one of those groups, and they need to be able to articulate their specific demands themselves and be able to argue for them, and to convincingly address concerns about where these rights can negatively impact others
Next up:
“Trans women are women”
As a statement, it makes no sense. It’s a call for people to believe and affirm, but it can only be possible by changing the definition of “woman” from referring to an adult female human to something else.
What that something else is is something that trans activists avoid clarifying, but the definition they clearly use, is this;
“A woman is an adult human female who is cool with seeing herself as a woman, plus any male person who sees herself as a woman”
Now that’s a definition that, if trans activists were open about it, we could at least start to get progression on - openly holding that definition would mean that we at least recognise that within the now widened definition of “woman” we have female people, and male people, and that as members of different sexes they may sometimes have conflicting needs.
However, what we find that trans activism *actually* does is it holds that widened definition of “woman” only as a momentary pathway to taking the next step, again using linguistic sleight of hand. It goes something like this - again, I’m using plain language to lay out the process, Invisible Wizard is very welcome to tell me where I’m wrong, if I need I am - “since those male people who identify as women are now, by definition, women, there is no reason other than hatred to recognise that trans women are not the same sex as the adult female humans who were already in the category. We’ve accepted they are women now, so focusing on sex is a weird obsession with genitals!”
That trick there is helped along by the third obfuscation tactic used by trans activism, and that is this:
Conflating Sex and Gender, then telling opponents that it’s THEM who are doing this.
Here’s the thing you’ve probably seen - it’s on these threads here, and any time you’ve mentioned this on Twitter or Facebook you’ve probably encountered it
Person stumblin into debate: “I mean, sure, I can see that people can identify as they want, but a trans woman is still male”
Trans activists “oh, what you’ve done there is conflated sex and gender - nobody is saying people change sex! We’re talking about gender identity, which is about an internal sense of self, not changing sex!”
Here’s the problem with that: trans activists are indeed talking about gender identity, and (while some extreme trans activists do claim that sex doesn’t exist) they do indeed understand that sex exists.
However, the demand is that gender identity overwrites and determines sex category regardless of how that might impact on people in that sex category; this is how “gender identity” - which it’s us anti trans bigots who ignorantly conflate with sex, remember - means that Laurel Hubbard competes in the female category, that there’s a biological male who lied about his sex, who has had no surgery and doesn’t have a gender recognition certificate, who is currently in charge of a rape crisis centre in Scotland and has this week said that rape victims who are uncomfortable with male examiners need to “reframe” their positions.
So trans activism does recognise that sex exists - it just demands that we can’t ever use “trans women are the opposite sex to those women who aren’t trans” as a reason to exclude male people from a given female space. Which is, effectively, pretending that sex doesn’t exist, and that gender identity is the sole determining factor.
These are just the first three, fundamental issues with the demands made by trans activists, and they can be thrashed out. Noting these issues and contradictions however, is not hatred. That’s why I can absolutely r3cognise that dysphoria exists, that some people really do believe they have a gender identity that is at odds with their sexed body and that living *as* the opposite sex can alleviate discomfort, but I don’t accept that recognising that means having to abandon critical thinking and agreeing to every demand on the basis that scrutinising demands and impositions made by a group amounts to bigotry.
We live in a sexist world. Sex exists and matters. I am not convinced that the group “male people who demand access to female spaces, who have redefined what it is to be a woman, and who have got big organisations falling over themselves to have their flag on their socials to show support” are actually more vulnerable women than women.
(, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 8:28, Reply)
Have you calmed down yet?
(
brb man-child cuck corporate supplicant fuck, Sun 15 Aug 2021, 16:04,
Reply)
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