![Challenge Entry: Explain Stuff With Maths [challenge entry]](/images/board_posticon_c.gif)

-----------------------
First post so be kind, feel free to add more Tesco rip-offs!
-----------------------
From the Explain Stuff With Maths challenge. See all 249 entries (closed)
( , Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:09, archived)

All took on my crappy camera phone (very discretely!)
Go look for more, I see new ones every week
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:14,
archived)
Go look for more, I see new ones every week

An apostrophe.
I'm unsure what you are trying to say.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 11:40,
archived)
I'm unsure what you are trying to say.

Statement.
rather than a
Substance.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 11:57,
archived)
rather than a
Substance.

No apostrophe needed.
But when some apples belong to Tesco's, are they Tesco's's apples?
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 15:25,
archived)
But when some apples belong to Tesco's, are they Tesco's's apples?

Q. Who owns the apples? A. Tesco.
Therefore, stricly speaking they are Tesco's apples rather than say Marks and Spencer's apples. Tesco can not be pluralised as it is not an artical, but Tesco can own acticals so 's is correct.
Should you need to talk about the make up of the Tesco business, such as more than one Tesco store, the 's is dropped - eg. 3 Tesco stores, 8 Tesco wearhouses, the Tesco delivery van.
However, if you were to write or talk about all the apples Tesco own, then the 's is droped as then you would be talk about the stock of apples held by Tesco hence they then form part of the make up of the Tesco business and 's would be incorrect.
Kiss my bum for easter Cadbury Creme eggs.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 17:34,
archived)
Therefore, stricly speaking they are Tesco's apples rather than say Marks and Spencer's apples. Tesco can not be pluralised as it is not an artical, but Tesco can own acticals so 's is correct.
Should you need to talk about the make up of the Tesco business, such as more than one Tesco store, the 's is dropped - eg. 3 Tesco stores, 8 Tesco wearhouses, the Tesco delivery van.
However, if you were to write or talk about all the apples Tesco own, then the 's is droped as then you would be talk about the stock of apples held by Tesco hence they then form part of the make up of the Tesco business and 's would be incorrect.
Kiss my bum for easter Cadbury Creme eggs.

That just sounds like the queen trying to say it now...
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 9:12,
archived)

a clear point, then when they make the most minute mistake
making that point. EVERYONE POINTS IT OUT.
hahaha great.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 21:00,
archived)
making that point. EVERYONE POINTS IT OUT.
hahaha great.

..it's just emphasis. There are just some cunts who choose to think it is shouting.
( ,
Thu 7 Jan 2010, 4:24,
archived)

we can drop jst the s an keep teh '.
So's the 's of um plurals is
( ,
Fri 8 Jan 2010, 7:48,
archived)
So's the 's of um plurals is

And took a picture on my phone. One of the staff saw me do it, looked puzzled, and a few days later the sign was changed.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 14:33,
archived)

It appears there are people from that there Portsmouth frequenting this board.
How dare they! I am also somewhat surprised they can read, however, that takes nothing away from this haven of pleasentness being ruined. You'll be telling me next you come from PAULSGROVE.
( ,
Thu 7 Jan 2010, 21:58,
archived)
How dare they! I am also somewhat surprised they can read, however, that takes nothing away from this haven of pleasentness being ruined. You'll be telling me next you come from PAULSGROVE.

I think they could get away with the 'better than half price' claim as it;s just a matter of perspective.
also, yay snow day!
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:14,
archived)
also, yay snow day!

For Tesco!
Shall we report them to the moral police? What's with the manager special?
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:16,
archived)
Shall we report them to the moral police? What's with the manager special?

£3 is not less than half of £5.39 and therefore not better for the consumer wishing to save monies...they are doing it wrong. Manager must be special.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 11:16,
archived)

Would be £2.695
Which is a NONSENSE.
Clearly £3.00 is Better, both aesthetically and calculatorability-wise
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 11:37,
archived)
Which is a NONSENSE.
Clearly £3.00 is Better, both aesthetically and calculatorability-wise

They mislabled the tuna offer from last month, three pack was £2 but two of them was £3 which was 6 for £3 (50p a can instead of £1+ hence better than half price). Money off AND a discount for bulk but this label seems to have conflated the two offers (past and current) and ended up incomprehensible.
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 21:41,
archived)

Although, having tittered, I probably wouldn't have noticed it when doing my shopping.
For me, grocery shopping is like birthday sex. Get in, get out with a minimum of fuss and mess.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:16,
archived)
For me, grocery shopping is like birthday sex. Get in, get out with a minimum of fuss and mess.

(which is why I'm not allowed in that Tesco any more)
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 14:54,
archived)

...where 1 woman says to her friend that the other day she bent over the freezer and her husband slips one up her. Her mate says, oh, my Dave does stuff like that all the time, and bird # 1 says yes, but i can't go back into that branch of sainsburys again.
Arf
( ,
Thu 7 Jan 2010, 4:30,
archived)
Arf

It's the closest thing to how shopping used to be; you know, when shopping meant telling someone what you want and them getting it for you as opposed to today where shopping means we have to do all the work while having none of the savings passed on to us.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:25,
archived)

what would you recommend?
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:27,
archived)


unlike Tango and Fanta, Orangina does a pretty good job of mimicking the flavour of orange, so you can fool yourself into thinking you're drinking actual orange juice.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:23,
archived)

101% fact
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:37,
archived)

Obviously I can't post it, because it's NSFW, but just take it from me, it was brilliant.
Brilliant.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:45,
archived)
Brilliant.

Do they still promote this with the carbonated variety?
*polaroid pictures work by 'waking' the image.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:31,
archived)
*polaroid pictures work by 'waking' the image.

I love lashings of Ginger Beer featured in another piccy :)
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:39,
archived)

Polaroid pics, if you can still find the film, should not be shaken to dry them - it makes the dyes run.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:42,
archived)

"With a button!"
It's funny the things you remember...
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:46,
archived)
It's funny the things you remember...


The orangina was probably £1 each, 2 for £1.60 and then they dropped it to 79p. The way the tills work is that they subtract the difference usually, so if it reads two oranginas it just subtracts 40p from the bill at the end. So you'd probably get two for £1.18.
Sorry to spoil the joke by explaining why it's perfectly reasonable :(
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:21,
archived)
Sorry to spoil the joke by explaining why it's perfectly reasonable :(


I still think it's total incompetence on their part.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:27,
archived)

how many people have purchased more then otherwise would have believing they're getting some kind of deal?
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:29,
archived)

as I explained, the till will be programmed to subtract a certain amount in line with the original deal, so if they bought two, they will get it for less than 2 x 79 pence.
X = the original price of a bottle of orangina
Y = the new price (79p in this case)
Z = the offer price for two of them (£1.60)
A = the amount to subtract from the bill
B = the amount charged
If the till registers two bottles of Orangina it will do the following sum;
A = (2x - Z)
and
B = (2Y - A)
Thus giving you a good deal because you don't pay £1.58 or £1.60, you pay £1.58 minus Z, whatever Z is. If Orangina was originally £1 a bottle, then z = 40p so you pay £1.18
That's how supermarket tills work. Look at your receipt next time you get something with a multibuy deal; they are charged at the normal price, and the difference subtracted at the end.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 12:35,
archived)
X = the original price of a bottle of orangina
Y = the new price (79p in this case)
Z = the offer price for two of them (£1.60)
A = the amount to subtract from the bill
B = the amount charged
If the till registers two bottles of Orangina it will do the following sum;
A = (2x - Z)
and
B = (2Y - A)
Thus giving you a good deal because you don't pay £1.58 or £1.60, you pay £1.58 minus Z, whatever Z is. If Orangina was originally £1 a bottle, then z = 40p so you pay £1.18
That's how supermarket tills work. Look at your receipt next time you get something with a multibuy deal; they are charged at the normal price, and the difference subtracted at the end.

I got 4 of those chocolate drink packets to see if I was charged a quid, turned out it was just (4 x Current Price)
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 12:49,
archived)

A few weeks ago the Tesco by me had pizzas that were £2 each or 2 for £3. They were reduced because they had reached the best before date to £1 each, so I bought two. When I looked at the receipt the till still subtracted £1 from the bill at the end. It happens a lot. It's probably not supposed to happen, but it frequently does all the same. You were just unlucky I guess.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 12:55,
archived)

Energy saving lightbulbs were in the 'we can't quite bring ourselves to through it away so we'll put in here in the hope that some gullible idiot pays us money to take away our rubbish' corner, but they were also reduced, so I paid, the money off price, with the multibuy taken off at the end. Ended up paying 25p a bulb, and buying loads of them. Boring but true.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 13:06,
archived)

I got all those pics in my last few visits, I think it's a right shitter on the people who didn't get an education
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:31,
archived)

or *shudder* somerfield the other day.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:32,
archived)

when will the *shuddering* stop?
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:39,
archived)

He described what he did as 'shuffling cheese'.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:41,
archived)


but I suspect the first two were part of a wider promotion involving other drinks which were available at a higher price
sorry, I'll go away again
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 10:55,
archived)
sorry, I'll go away again

For many years there was a stallholder on Coventry Market who'd advertise some of his wares thusly:
Oranges - 20p each or 4 for £1
If anyone asked for 4 oranges he would then ask them
"Do you want 4 for a £1 or 4 for 20p each ?"
If they said 4 for £1 that's what they got.
Guess which option the majority of Coventry Market shoppers chose ?
Fuck knows what he'd have got away with in Birmingham !
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 11:48,
archived)
Oranges - 20p each or 4 for £1
If anyone asked for 4 oranges he would then ask them
"Do you want 4 for a £1 or 4 for 20p each ?"
If they said 4 for £1 that's what they got.
Guess which option the majority of Coventry Market shoppers chose ?
Fuck knows what he'd have got away with in Birmingham !

Even the Fruit and Veg stalls etc. Maybe I can buy 4 oranges for 90p :)
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 11:53,
archived)

...but the point is that no drinks that are being sold individually for less than 80p should be included in the offer.
On another note Tesco had a stack of something at the end of the aisle the other day with 2p off, can't remember what it was but the product was about £2.30 odd so it represented a staggering less than 1% reduction!
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 11:52,
archived)
On another note Tesco had a stack of something at the end of the aisle the other day with 2p off, can't remember what it was but the product was about £2.30 odd so it represented a staggering less than 1% reduction!

Yes they should, as there are more expensive drinks included in the offer.
Why can't I buy a coke for 99p and a ginger beer for 67p and save my 6p? It's misleading to not include the rest of the shelf.
The same goes for the sachets too.
It's not Tesco's fault if people are tards and buy two drinks worth less.
The only offer that doesn't make any sense there is the last one, which isn't actually costing the customer any extra money, it's just incorrect in its accuracy.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 13:42,
archived)
Why can't I buy a coke for 99p and a ginger beer for 67p and save my 6p? It's misleading to not include the rest of the shelf.
The same goes for the sachets too.
It's not Tesco's fault if people are tards and buy two drinks worth less.
The only offer that doesn't make any sense there is the last one, which isn't actually costing the customer any extra money, it's just incorrect in its accuracy.

Which store was this? They shouldn't be doing this and I want to complain...(I love complaining)
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 13:19,
archived)

P.S. Please don't stalk me whilst I shop, I may forget milk or something even more important like Ginger Beer
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 13:28,
archived)

2D from the virtual band known as the Gorillaz got one of his black eyes when Murdoc crashed the car they were in doing donuts in the Carlton Tesco car park. 100% of FACT.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 18:56,
archived)

because the duty manager will show you all the products linked to the Fanta promotion, all the lines that are on sale for more than 80p and then mock you for even thinking that Tesco would charge you £1.60 for 2 bottles of soft drink even when they are worth 67p.
Then you will stand there feeling foolish and have to shop in Morrisons due to the crushing embarassment.
I was that b3tan
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 14:58,
archived)
Then you will stand there feeling foolish and have to shop in Morrisons due to the crushing embarassment.
I was that b3tan

the Fanta shelf edge lable......
What you dont see is the other 10 products by the same suppiler which are worth more than 80p.....so you can have any 2 of the promotional bottles for £1.60....or less, if you buy 2 of the cheaper products, as Santa Clauswitheringlicktacklefeff said.
The Options are the same...there will be a number of similar products at relatively similar price points which mean that if you buy the four most expensive items the most you will pay is £1
Also...it must also be remembered that not all tescos sell all products so even if you dont ever see the other, more expensive, promotional products in your nearest shop, they do exist and on sale in the bigger stores or are just plain out of stock
As for the Tuna..
It would seem it was already reduced from full price, then reduced to £3 from £5whatever....the poster is not very clear so thats Tescos bad for that one
33% Tesco fail isnt bad though
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 14:51,
archived)
What you dont see is the other 10 products by the same suppiler which are worth more than 80p.....so you can have any 2 of the promotional bottles for £1.60....or less, if you buy 2 of the cheaper products, as Santa Clauswitheringlicktacklefeff said.
The Options are the same...there will be a number of similar products at relatively similar price points which mean that if you buy the four most expensive items the most you will pay is £1
Also...it must also be remembered that not all tescos sell all products so even if you dont ever see the other, more expensive, promotional products in your nearest shop, they do exist and on sale in the bigger stores or are just plain out of stock
As for the Tuna..
It would seem it was already reduced from full price, then reduced to £3 from £5whatever....the poster is not very clear so thats Tescos bad for that one
33% Tesco fail isnt bad though

Is why that entire FP is utter fail! It clearly says that it covers more than one drink, and I can guarantee the rest of them will be more expensive.
And again, the Tuna will be a further reduction.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 17:41,
archived)
And again, the Tuna will be a further reduction.

to be accurate. This is B3ta not University Challenge.
The noob has taken the time to find a meme and use it in an original,humorous context. IMHO the fail is not with the FP or the noob.
BTW Woo Noob!
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 19:50,
archived)
The noob has taken the time to find a meme and use it in an original,humorous context. IMHO the fail is not with the FP or the noob.
BTW Woo Noob!

There weren't actually any other products at a higher price that justify the crazy "saving", next time I'll have to take 5-6 covert pictures of the whole aisle to satisfy the nay-sayers :P
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 21:29,
archived)

There's plenty of people on this site with a
broad enough SOH to appreciate the great variety
of astounding talent that gets posted here.
(Of course there's crap as well but surprisingly
little considering the number of members.)
If you choose to react to feedback there's some talented
posters in your thread who have given you positive comments.
(btw, not me in that list, skillz bypass at birth).
So whatever you do stick to being you. That's what earned you
the front page on your first post and that's what the rest
of us want to see more of.
So pull up a shop etc and good luck.
(Was that alright Gordon?)
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 22:05,
archived)
broad enough SOH to appreciate the great variety
of astounding talent that gets posted here.
(Of course there's crap as well but surprisingly
little considering the number of members.)
If you choose to react to feedback there's some talented
posters in your thread who have given you positive comments.
(btw, not me in that list, skillz bypass at birth).
So whatever you do stick to being you. That's what earned you
the front page on your first post and that's what the rest
of us want to see more of.
So pull up a shop etc and good luck.
(Was that alright Gordon?)

but it was in the same deal as Pepsi and the like which was much more expensive. So buying say a Pepsi and a Ginger Beer still makes a saving.
Frankly I don't believe that there weren't any other products at a higher price. Go and take a photo and prove it.
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 9:45,
archived)
Frankly I don't believe that there weren't any other products at a higher price. Go and take a photo and prove it.

Yes there were, you can clearly see the diet coke next to the ginger beer which is part of the deal and is priced at 99p.
Also, there are dr peppers and cokes below the orangina, as you can tell by the caps.
It even looks like the diet cokes have been pushed back into the shelf.
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 17:47,
archived)
Also, there are dr peppers and cokes below the orangina, as you can tell by the caps.
It even looks like the diet cokes have been pushed back into the shelf.

I would perhaps not go that far, its not fail.
But what it does do is plays on the ill-founded preconception that any business, that is successful, is out to screw you. Which I why it got FP'd, as lots of b3tans were wanting to "stick it to the Man".
If we, as customers, stood back and said to ourselves..."Do I honestly think a supermarket are going to charge me £1.60 for two bottles of a Pepsi Co product which cost 67p?" the honest answer is going to be "No, I really dont think they would do that"
All of that aside, gratz go to the FNG for getting a real picture, with no shoppery, on the Front Page, with his first post.
Better going than me
/claps excitedly
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 9:52,
archived)
But what it does do is plays on the ill-founded preconception that any business, that is successful, is out to screw you. Which I why it got FP'd, as lots of b3tans were wanting to "stick it to the Man".
If we, as customers, stood back and said to ourselves..."Do I honestly think a supermarket are going to charge me £1.60 for two bottles of a Pepsi Co product which cost 67p?" the honest answer is going to be "No, I really dont think they would do that"
All of that aside, gratz go to the FNG for getting a real picture, with no shoppery, on the Front Page, with his first post.
Better going than me
/claps excitedly

Don't let the logical spoilsports kill your buzz.
Woo!
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 16:10,
archived)
Woo!

but that's because I'm a toff who only shops in M&S and Waitrose.
(Mind you, I'm still a gullible twat, because I bought some 'reduced' Duchy Original biscuits in Waitrose yesterday. They still cost over a pound. When I opened them up, there were seven biscuits inside. Seven. Not giant biscuits, just normal ones. Seven. And I've already eaten more than half of them.)
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 16:46,
archived)
(Mind you, I'm still a gullible twat, because I bought some 'reduced' Duchy Original biscuits in Waitrose yesterday. They still cost over a pound. When I opened them up, there were seven biscuits inside. Seven. Not giant biscuits, just normal ones. Seven. And I've already eaten more than half of them.)

What are these M&S and Waitrose of which you speak?
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 19:08,
archived)

...(his words)
"Ok, this can easily be explained.
When we (tesco) setup promotions, we set them up on the system in what we call "buckets". A "bucket" is the group of products in the promotion. So for example, Bucket 431 might be a selection of drinks, let's say 500ml Pepsi bottles, the offer being 2 for £1.
Now lets say the Pepsi bottles are all 79p each, which means you'd be saving money by buying 2, however just 1 type of pepsi might only be 49p. We have to add all the products in that "sub-group" (500ml pepsi bottles) to the bucket, so unfortunately you'll sometimes find one product that doesn't sit right. It's generally just 1 product in the offer though, look at the others and they'll fit."
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 19:30,
archived)
"Ok, this can easily be explained.
When we (tesco) setup promotions, we set them up on the system in what we call "buckets". A "bucket" is the group of products in the promotion. So for example, Bucket 431 might be a selection of drinks, let's say 500ml Pepsi bottles, the offer being 2 for £1.
Now lets say the Pepsi bottles are all 79p each, which means you'd be saving money by buying 2, however just 1 type of pepsi might only be 49p. We have to add all the products in that "sub-group" (500ml pepsi bottles) to the bucket, so unfortunately you'll sometimes find one product that doesn't sit right. It's generally just 1 product in the offer though, look at the others and they'll fit."

I have a "friend" that likes making rodeo noises when taking his gf from behind.
Sounds like your friend coached you really well on the whole shop jargon there *wink*
Think Sir Terry reads this?
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 9:59,
archived)
Sounds like your friend coached you really well on the whole shop jargon there *wink*
Think Sir Terry reads this?

...and I don't want to know the boring reason behind it. The joy of B3ta is things being taken out of one context and put into a silly new context. Which you've done perfectly.
Have a good, old fashioned w/y/h
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 20:57,
archived)
Have a good, old fashioned w/y/h

PG tips: 80 bags @ £2.10 while on the shelf above there's boxes of 40 bags @ 80p each, why?, to push the big box of 160 bags @ £3. Bastards! The bigger box stretches my bag for life and reduces it's lifespan causing me to exchange for new one while as I have more teabags, the kettle goes on more causing me leccy bill to go up, forcing me to get an evening job...at tesco! Although I did save a pound, bargin
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 21:47,
archived)

B3ta the fuck out of it, given your level of talent.
Here's a click and a rare Hi Cockalorum for a text reply.
( ,
Tue 5 Jan 2010, 22:17,
archived)
Here's a click and a rare Hi Cockalorum for a text reply.

You could have bought one box of 40 bags for 80p.
The £2.20 that remains in your wallet could have been invested in a high interest savings account until spent. Assuming you use 40 bags a week, you'll have invested £2.20 for 1 week, £1.60 for 2 weeks and 80p for one week. The interest earnt (almost half a penny at current interest rates) would further reduce the cost of the tea.
Total spend £3.20, less interest earnt.
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 8:18,
archived)
The £2.20 that remains in your wallet could have been invested in a high interest savings account until spent. Assuming you use 40 bags a week, you'll have invested £2.20 for 1 week, £1.60 for 2 weeks and 80p for one week. The interest earnt (almost half a penny at current interest rates) would further reduce the cost of the tea.
Total spend £3.20, less interest earnt.

Only thing is most peeps me included are suckers for a bargin, so you get more, but as with so much in life the more you have the more you use/ spend. Next week rolls round and I'd go for the bigger box again. I like a cuppa or eight in the evening :)
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 13:04,
archived)

You should know that we appeal to our audience. Old people and chavs. There is nothing wrong with that maths. XD
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 0:12,
archived)

Orangina, almost like orangevagina. Good post BTW.
That is all.
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 1:42,
archived)
That is all.

What I can't work out is why its more expensive to buy the three pack of Tescos sweetcorn than buy three separate tins. How do they ever sell the multipacks? Its been like it for years.
WHY SWEETCORN? WHY!
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 9:03,
archived)
WHY SWEETCORN? WHY!

but they were selling energy saving lightbulbs for £1 each, or 4 for £1. I saw several people purchasing less than 4.
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 12:34,
archived)

I love that "better than half price" one. Ha ha.
Anyway, here's one of my own to add to the mix.

( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 15:34,
archived)
Anyway, here's one of my own to add to the mix.

That's a good spot, those labels hide it a little better :)
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 17:40,
archived)

Bars of Dairy Milk for 47p each or two for £1.10 or something like that.
( ,
Wed 6 Jan 2010, 22:09,
archived)


(Snapped tonight in my local Sainsbury's. Apologies for crapness of camera on phone.)

is that some numpty has stuck that up without thinking how stupid it is.
( ,
Fri 8 Jan 2010, 11:17,
archived)